Finance Committee on Oct. 16th, 2023

[Mark Richardson]

I would, 100%. I would say that our organization would be very helpful with giving you feedback on the parameters of what needs to be on that list. A list is no good without some information on what the parcel contains.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

That was rapid fire.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have enough time for a question.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I do have enough time for a question.

Because I got all my questions in, I'll just point out that we need more data. We need more witnesses, including short-term rental operators, who are going to explain why we don't have the data. We need to know where the surplus lands are. Somebody, for crying out loud, has to get the National Research Council and NRCan in here to explain why, despite what everybody was telling them, they've gone ahead and are going to saddle new home purchasers with $50,000 of new costs when they change the building code.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Chambers.

As everybody has noticed, we have quite a force here from London. We have a special guest here, an MP from London, Peter Fragiskatos. I know that MP Mathyssen is also here from London. We're going to have a lot of questions, I guess, about London.

MP Fragiskatos, the floor is yours.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

You should be so lucky that London is so well represented here today, Mr. Chair.

Obviously, I'm going to begin with Mayor Morgan.

Mayor, thank you for being here. Thank you for the work that you're doing.

There was $74 million recently announced for the housing accelerator fund. London is the first city in the country to receive it. How will that funding be used, specifically?

[Josh Morgan]

At a base level, we were going to build 9,432 homes over the next three years; now we're going to build 11,619. By “build”, I don't mean the municipality will build them, but we're going to enable the creation of more stock.

There are a number of ways we're going to do that, which are outlined in our application, but at the end of the day we're going to do 23% more than we otherwise would have.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

You're saying 2,000 more homes will be built. What are the key...? How are you going to get there?

I know you did touch on this in your presentation, but I think it's good for the committee to know how it all works, the mechanics of this particular program, the back-and-forth, the give-and-take between the federal government in offering funding and the changes municipalities are prepared to make to receive that funding.

[Josh Morgan]

I'll mention a couple things and then I'll watch for the time to wrap up.

First, through the discussion of the application, there was an engagement with Minister Fraser about the number of as-of-right units that we would permit in a city and a desire to increase that, which I took to council. Council approved it, and now we've moved forward with implementation.

An important piece linked to that, which we're also looking into to ensure that it is effective legislation, is the bedroom cap across the city, which we'll review and report back on in the new year. You can have more as-of-right units, but if you have bedroom caps in part of your city, then you're essentially restricting it anyway.

That engagement was helpful in understanding the federal government's desire on those pieces and was something the city was willing to move forward with.

With the actual housing accelerator fund money, which you know is flexible—although these are the envelopes under which we plan to spend it, there is some flexibility to really go after the processes that will create the most units—we're going to do a number of things.

We're going to implement new incentives for conversions of non-residential units to residential units in the downtown core. We're going to look into new community improvement programs, meaning incentive programs in our transit areas, where we may, either for affordability or even for creating higher densification, do a waiver of some kind of development charge fees. We haven't developed that program yet, but we're looking into using some of the housing accelerator fund to develop new incentive programs that can drive both affordability and unit creation.

We're going to participate in direct builds with the federal government, as we have in the past, to actually get into that missing middle that I mentioned after the earlier question about the deeply affordable units.

We're going to invest in housing-enabling infrastructure. Although we have the development charges fund, the DC fund, the way that is planned over time isn't always conducive to the time frame for unlocking land. With some of that money, we will potentially create investments in either wastewater improvements or water infrastructure that either wouldn't be covered under the DC fund or needs to be accelerated in the time frame to unlock areas of high-density residential intensification in parts of our city sooner, earlier, and to a greater degree. We're going to use some of that, too, to invest in supportive housing, because we recognize that even the most marginalized and vulnerable in our city deserve a place to live as well. A piece of this is about partnering to build more supportive housing, housing with wraparound service supports within our city.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Moving towards electronic permitting is part of this.

[Josh Morgan]

Yes, I missed that piece. Thank you for asking.

There is a whole series of process improvements. As I said, there's shared accountability. Federal, provincial, and municipal governments, the development community, and the not-for-profit sector all have a role to play.

One of the things we need to actively work on is speeding up processes, cutting red tape, and getting things done at the municipal level. We are using some of the housing accelerator funds to improve those processes in consultation with those who use the processes, which is why we set up a housing supply committee of the city, the development community, and the not-for-profit community to dig into how to effectively use that money.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mayor.

With the remaining time, Mr. Chair, I want to go to Sue Wastell.

Sue, it's great to see you again. Thank you for the work you're doing locally, provincially and nationally.

You've heard now what the mayor has said on electronic permitting. This is something you and I have discussed in the past. It is very much tied as part of the accelerator fund. What do you see and what do you hear in your circles, either provincially or nationally, in terms of permitting delays that we see in different municipalities, and how those delays affect construction time?

[Sue Wastell]

Thanks, Peter.

Locally we do already have some form of electronic permitting, but there is certainly opportunity to improve the timelines by perhaps making adjustments to that system or even going with a newer system that's available. I do know that across Ontario there are many municipalities that do not have the luxury of electronic permitting.

It's not just big developers or builders; homeowners will find a great benefit and be able to do this work and be effective in getting their permits out quicker, which will save money in the long run when it comes to housing.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Fragiskatos. We're over time, actually, and we're going to MP Ste-Marie.

Go ahead, please.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are for Ms. Drolet. Welcome, and thank you for being here.

According to recent Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, or CMHC, data, the number of housing starts in the greater Montreal area is down 58% because of construction costs and credit, or interest rates.

Have you seen a similar drop in the municipalities you represent?

[Maryse Drolet, Political Advisor, Fédération québécoise des municipalités]

Thank you for your question.

We're seeing that, but to a lesser extent. Is it because of interest rates? There are lots of factors to consider, many of which have been mentioned today. I'm pretty sure that the situation is similar everywhere and that the labour shortage is hurting all sectors.

Lots of people say there are plenty of projects but no developers, workers and builders to respond to calls for tender, and that slows down housing starts. Certainly, the interest rate is a factor, but construction costs are also a factor. This slowdown is multifactorial. Another thing we hear a lot is that the municipal sector is very involved.

To follow up on Ms. Bolduc's comments, I would add that we've seen a lot of people moving back to the regions since the pandemic, especially young people. Big companies' expansion plans are running into obstacles. At the end of the day, we can't accommodate the new people we would like to bring into our communities. Young people who want to come back to the regions are looking for houses, but what we're hearing is that there's nothing left for sale or for rent anywhere. Vacancy rates are below 0%. It's crazy. There's no such thing as a 3% vacancy rate anywhere in Quebec. It's a really difficult situation.

There are also all kinds of regulatory barriers. It's not the same in Quebec as it is in Ontario. Everything hinges on agreements with the Société d'habitation du Québec.

As we said earlier, we're glad there's an agreement in place, but the details are still up in the air. What we want is decentralization so municipalities can better assess and meet people's needs.

What we've found is that it's hard to get into these programs because the criteria aren't geared to our reality. That means there's no flexibility and projects take longer to get done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. Drolet.

Members, just quickly, this has just come to my attention. We were only supposed to be in this room until 5:30, but things got delayed today. We have it only until six o'clock, and that's coming up in eight minutes.

I'm going to go to MP Blaikie for about two and a half minutes, but then I am going to cut short MP Lawrence and MP Baker, who will each get two and a half minutes. Is everybody okay?

I'm sorry, MP Mathyssen. You have my apologies. Of course, MP Mathyssen is from London, which has taken over our committee here today.

MP Mathyssen, go ahead, please.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses. I have a short period of time, so I'd like to direct my questions to Mayor Morgan.

We've talked about it today. There are many Londoners, specifically, who are facing renovictions in our city, and I've certainly been trying to draw attention to the people in my riding in those apartments on Webster Street who are facing this situation.

Would the City of London benefit from something New Democrats have called for in terms of the creation of a not-for-profit housing acquisition fund so that co-ops, non-profits and municipal governments could access funding to allow them to then purchase buildings or units that would normally be sold at that higher market rate to people who are only interested in profit and instead keep them in that not-for-profit affordable state?

[Josh Morgan]

I think you'd rarely find a mayor or an elected official who would say no to a new fund that would flow more money to cities, particularly to try any innovative solution, particularly for people who are likely to be evicted and who would maybe move into a space where they couldn't afford the rent.

I think there are certainly roles for the provincial government to play with what's happening in our city as well, and some of the controls—or lack of controls—that exist there. I'd have to understand better exactly what it is, but I would say that all of us should be open to many creative ideas regarding how to tackle the challenge we have.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

One thing Mr. Richardson spoke to was in terms of affordability and holding models of affordability in place for 99-plus years.

In terms of this accelerator fund that has been given to London, and the creation of that affordability, how long are you expecting that holding of affordability to last?

[Josh Morgan]

I can't answer that very specifically yet.

The fund allows us to engage in a number of activities. Until we start to develop those out with the different partners.... Some of these may be partnerships with not-for-profits and others may be direct city builds, where we might have a little more control. I know the fund flows in phases. There will be an accounting for us to create the units.

I can't answer that yet, but what I will say is that as much as possible, it is our desire to create both depth of affordability as well as length of affordability. Again, there are trade-offs on which one you are able to go for that depend on the amount of money you have. Because of the different types of housing we'll be supporting under the fund, it might apply differently to, say, supportive housing, deeply affordable housing and some of the other housing we're trying to create.

I will say we are focused on trying to create affordability with the money.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

How —

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Mathyssen. I know, and I apologize.

It's over to MP Morantz for about two minutes or so.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a quick question: Has the Minister of Finance accepted our gracious invitation to appear here?