Finance Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2023

[Cam Guthrie]

I would say no, not really. There weren't. You rightly said that about a year ago there were about 10, and now there are 20. It has become a very big issue.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

What I'm trying to get my head around is that the federal government has spent billions of dollars on housing. I know you're thankful for the money you have gotten.

[Cam Guthrie]

Sure.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

The national housing program has an $82-billion program, the housing accelerator fund. I think there might have been an announcement in your community about the accelerator fund. In any event, that's a $4-billion program that hasn't built any homes.

It seems to me that these programs aren't really working. In fact, over the time you've been mayor, it's become far worse. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts as to why.

[Cam Guthrie]

I will say that the rapid housing initiative that was created by the federal government a couple of years ago did result in three different supportive housing projects coming online for this year, with one of them just about to come online.

Actually, in my remarks I mentioned that the housing accelerator fund was announced at one of our supportive housing projects called Grace Gardens. I believe the federal government contributed over $6 million to that one project alone.

Out of our entire housing for homelessness portfolio, we will have three different projects, all opening up within a 12-month period, which will house over 100 people who are vulnerable and who have homelessness issues in our city. All three of those projects did have some sort of federal component to them.

Specifically on the housing accelerator fund that was announced in Guelph, we have not yet heard the outcomes. We are really waiting for that, and the quicker it can come, the more it can improve our inside processes at city hall and also hopefully help with incentives to try to get housing moving as well.

Could it all go faster? It could, absolutely, and everyone will say that. Faster, I think, is important at all levels of government, and I would even say that about myself as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Thank you, MP Morantz.

Now we will move to MP Thompson. Go ahead, please.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Welcome to the witnesses.

Mayor Guthrie, if I may, I want to zoom in on you. Certainly I congratulate you on the work you're doing in Guelph. I think it's absolutely tremendous.

I want to speak about the barriers in housing construction at the municipal level, first about the restrictive zoning rules and permitting delays.

How will the agreements with the federal government on the accelerator fund help negotiations with municipalities? How can we break down some of those very clear barriers through that accelerator fund in terms of what's being asked of municipalities so that they can be successful in receiving the funding?

[Cam Guthrie]

Thank you for the funding.

One of the things I'm excited about with the housing accelerator fund is that it is going to actually help with internal processes at city hall.

There is an element of it, or a bucket of the funding, that I know will help with the bricks-and-mortar side or the infrastructure side, and that's very important, but what I am very excited about is the internal structural changes that will happen at city halls. I know my staff are excited as well. Those could involve upstaffing. They could help with technology to make things and processes happen faster.

Those structural changes will help not only with the housing that's needed now but also with housing tomorrow and next month and next year and the year after that as well. That will be part of the funds that will, hopefully, be coming our way. I hope that my saying that will go directly to Minister Fraser and get that done.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

What would you say to the mayors of Canadian cities who have an opportunity to come forward with an application for the accelerator fund but who are really pulling back?

[Cam Guthrie]

I don't know why anyone would do that, but if they don't want to come forward and that means more money can come to Guelph, that's also fine.

I would suggest that the structural issues within city halls have been a problem, and I mean that very respectfully. It's not on purpose. Some of it is just the way processes are and the lack of technology, as I mentioned.

If those processes could become faster and more efficient, that would be of benefit to everyone. That's for the family who might want to change their home into another three units as much as it is for the large developers who want to build a 500-unit apartment building. These changes internally can really help people, and I would really encourage people to take advantage of any type of program that can help with housing.

We need more of those than just the housing accelerator fund—there is my little nudge to you—but we definitely need people to take advantage of it. It's only going to help.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Drawing from that, then, I will probably ask everyone this question, based on the time I have.

We know we have a crisis and that the federal government has a role to play, absolutely, as do provincial governments, territories, municipalities, not-for-profits and industry. How do we break down the silos that exist across all of these places and really build that collaboration? Everyone has spoken about it, but I am finding it incredibly challenging to find examples of places that truly have been able to bring all stakeholders to the table to say that they understand, that they've quantified their problem, and that this is how they're going to come together and really, across the continuum, address the problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

A 15-second answer is what I need.

[Cam Guthrie]

Through you, Chair, I will say ditto to what Michael said. It's about looking to the federal government for leadership to bring people together and to get it done. That's not to repeat the get-it-done stuff that we already know needs to happen but just to set the rules and get it done, because we're all ready to go, including the private sector and non-profit sector and government levels.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Thank you, MP Thompson.

Now we go to MP Ste-Marie.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I completely agree with you, Mr. Mayor. That's very interesting.

Mr. Bourque, I believe you suggested raising the cap on the HBP, the RRSP withdrawal for the home buyers' plan. What are your suggestions?

You mentioned the first home savings account, the FHSA. How can we make sure this translates into access to ownership for first-time buyers without further increasing property prices?

[Michael Bourque]

I believe the caps have already been raised. Now we have several programs, but interest rates are very high and property prices are high across the country, which causes a number of problems.

One thing I mentioned was the need for innovation in the financial sector. It's true that Canadian banks are heavily regulated and aren't necessarily motivated to offer innovative programs and mortgages. The government should take this opportunity to have conversations with the banks. We would suggest creating a round table to exchange ideas. Banks could be part of that and share their ideas for innovation in the financial sphere.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Ste-Marie.

Now we're going to our last questioner for these witnesses before we get back to MP Hallan's motion.

MP Blaikie, go ahead.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Dufort, the committee often hears that higher spending goes hand in hand with higher inflation. That said, it's clear we need public and private investment in the housing market.

How important do you think it is for the federal government and other levels of government to provide programs that enable employers to take care of employee training and skill development so they can provide services in the medium and long terms? Obviously we're not going to solve the housing problem overnight.

[Daniel Dufort]

I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'd say the government definitely has a role to play in social housing. The thing is, we're talking about building 5.11 million units in eight years. Given the scale of the problem, I wonder how much of the demand is for social housing. Still, the government does have a role to play. Is the existing model the best one? Does it work the fastest given the government's level of involvement? I don't really think so.

For job training, I think the problem is at the provincial level. Earlier, Mr. Lawrence talked about bureaucratic control, and that kind of control affects access to construction trades and professions too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

Let us thank these expert witnesses.

We thank you for your testimony for this housing study. It's really been incredible and enlightening. You're really where the rubber meets the road, finding out what is happening in the housing market and how we can find solutions to having more housing and to alleviate the pressure that Canadians have on them right now.

Thank you very much for appearing before our committee. We appreciate it.

Now we're getting back to MP Hallan's motion. I had MP Ste-Marie and then MP Blaikie who wanted to speak to this motion.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll vote in favour of Mr. Hallan's motion, but I'd like to point out a few things.

I understand why the merger needs to happen. HSBC has the right to sell its Canadian operations. My political party and I understand that. However, we also know that there is an equilibrium among the big Canadian banks, which are all similar in size. The fact that it's the biggest of them, Royal Bank, that wants to buy HSBC worries me because it will make the banking sector less balanced.

We also know that HSBC's environmental policies are more rigorous than Royal Bank's. If Royal Bank acquires HSBC, the financial sector's climate change commitments could take a hit, and that worries me too.

I would like to raise what I think is another very important consideration. Bill C‑56 is before the House now. Part 2 of the bill would expand the Competition Bureau's powers to review transactions. The review of whether Royal Bank should be allowed to acquire HSBC was therefore done by a more anemic version of the Competition Bureau that had no real powers, as we've come to see in recent years. In my opinion, one very interesting approach that could provide some reassurance would be to ask the Competition Bureau to re-evaluate this proposed transaction once Bill C‑56 has been passed and implemented and the Bureau has more teeth. Ideally, some other financial institution would acquire HSBC's Canadian operations.

That, in a nutshell, is why I will support the motion put forward by my colleague, Mr. Hallan.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

Now we will go to MP Blaikie.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to MP Ste-Marie for setting the table for some of the things I will also say.

Obviously there is a lot of talk, and rightly so, about the competition regime in Canada these days. The government recognized as much with Bill C-56, and NDP leader Jagmeet Singh has proposed some even more forceful amendments to Canada's Competition Act.

I doubt that I'm the only MP around this table hearing from frustrated customers in light of the Rogers-Shaw merger and the way that it's unrolling. Of course, when there's a merger in the offing, it's always usual to hear how it's going to be great for customers and 1,000 flowers will bloom, but I have been around long enough now to see the fallout of those kinds of mergers, whether it's Rogers-Shaw or Bell-MTS back home in Manitoba, where Manitobans have seen a marked lack of—or, shall I say, deterioration in—service, so it should be no surprise.

I remember talking about bank mergers for the first time around 1998 with my father, who was a New Democrat MP at the time and opposed the bank mergers of those days, so I'm glad to see we're in more mixed political company these days in terms of our opposition to those mergers and I welcome all those folks to the party.

I think it's also worth mentioning that HSBC has been compared to large banks, so that's an important caveat, Mr. Chair, but it has been more pioneering in the green finance space that this committee has been looking at and has a more diversified portfolio, while RBC is one of the biggest Canadian bank investors in the fossil fuel sector. They are, with the exception of the federal government, the most exposed on the TMX pipeline, and I think it would be tragic to see a financial institution that seems to be making an effort to diversify its portfolio and provide capital for the new energy economy that's coming out get swallowed up by a larger bank that has shown a decided lack of interest in pursuing financing for these kinds of projects that are going to be the basis of a lot of good union-paying jobs for Canadians into the future.

There's a lot to consider here, but I think that when you consider the facts that are already available, it's clear that this is a merger that should not proceed, and that's why I will be happy to vote for the motion presently.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

I don't see any more hands or any discussion, so I guess we'll have a show of hands for those who are in favour of MP Hallan's motion.