Finance Committee on Oct. 26th, 2023

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Oh, I'm sorry. You said you were disappointed.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I did not say that, Mr. Morantz.

Mr. Chair, point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

It is a point of order. The member is just being clear as to what was said on the record.

Go ahead, MP Morantz.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Okay. I appreciate that.

Do I have my time back on that point of order, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Morantz, the time is yours.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I know you're always fair with time.

Mr. Asselin, here's your chance. Explain to Ms. Dzerowicz all the things you've written on over the years that would have helped her government make sure we have high growth instead of anemic growth over all those years.

[Robert Asselin]

I'll focus on one thing that's very close to my heart, which is innovation. I think every country that takes industrial policy seriously has innovative capabilities. In this country we have high-performing universities that do world-class research and we have great companies, but what we haven't done is connect the two together the way the Americans, the Germans and the South Koreans have done with institutional capabilities such as DARPA and NASA in the U.S. and Fraunhofer in Germany.

All this intellectual capital we're producing in Canada does not translate into the economy because we have not created the incentive for it to transfer into our private companies. As long as we don't address this fundamental problem in our science and technology architecture, I believe we're going to have weak performance in productivity.

I've written many papers on this. If members are interested, they can go onto the Business Council's website to get more on this.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you very much.

I have a question for you, Ms. Bernard and Ms. Pellerin. It has to do with Bill C-69, what we affectionately call the “no more pipelines" bill. I wonder if your organization has a position on this. We know that the Supreme Court recently opined that several sections of this bill are unconstitutional, and the government announced that it's going to have to retool it.

My understanding is that this legislation makes no mention of UNDRIP and doesn't really address the idea of economic reconciliation, which is one of the points you raised in your opening statement. I'm wondering if you agree that this legislation is seriously flawed and needs to be reworked.

[Joanna Bernard]

I apologize. I thought the question was for Mark—

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

No.

[Joanna Bernard]

When I heard you explaining it, you were saying the submission makes no reference to UNDRIP?

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Yes, Bill C-69, what we call the “no more pipelines” bill, creates administrative roadblocks not only to oil and gas but also to things like mines, critical minerals and those types of things. The Supreme Court of Canada just ruled that many of the bill's sections are unconstitutional. I was wondering if your organization has any opinion on that piece of legislation, which does not mention UNDRIP.

[Joanna Bernard]

I believe the court decision on that was recent. Is that the one you're talking about, Bill C-69? Maybe you could refer to it.

[Julie Pellerin]

With regard to AFN's position, we don't really have a position. We support and advocate for the first nations, and the issue of pipelines is one that each individual first nation will be addressing.

However, when it comes to references to UNDRIP and to the UNDA, we are looking at all of the legislation that is put forward by Canada. If Canada enacts the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act and its subsequent national action plan, the AFN will be ensuring that all the legislation in Canada—and Canada should also be doing this as their commitment—will reflect their commitment to those documents—UNDRIP, UNDA and the national action plan.

I know that doesn't necessarily specifically answer your question, but it's not in my sector, so I'm not as able to elaborate on it as much, but actually perhaps we can follow up and provide some information.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Sure. That would be great, if you have information on it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you. If you could submit that to the committee, we'd appreciate it.

Thank you, MP Morantz.

MP Thompson, you're going to be our last questioner of these fine witnesses today.

That is five minutes to you, please.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Again, Mr. Asselin, I'm sorry there isn't more time to ask you some questions.

Clearly we've just come through the worst summer in history for forest fires in Canada, across all sectors. Companies are saying that they are feeling the impact of climate change.

A KPMG study from last week stated that nearly six out of 10 Canadian small businesses have been affected by some type of extreme weather event this year, more than 50% of businesses surveyed have experienced a significant rise in their overall costs, and 44% are saying that it has directly hit their revenues.

Can you speak to climate impacts on businesses over the last year?

[Robert Asselin]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think the question is very relevant. Every company, big and small—we represent larger firms, obviously—is dealing with this thing. It's not going to go away; it's just going to accelerate.

The Business Council has been supportive of carbon pricing for the last 20 years. This is something we've been supportive of.

For the government, I think it's a question of being proactive on climate policy, but also on climate adaptation. I think this summer has shown that the adaptation part was maybe underlooked by policy-makers, given the size of what's happening in the world. On climate change, I think we're all realizing that the adaptation side will need to be a more important focus for policy-makers.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

I'm going to zero in on that for a moment. Do you believe that carbon pricing is an effective way—there are many things that we have to do—in helping to address the climate crisis?

[Robert Asselin]

Yes. In general, I think carbon pricing is something we've been supportive of.

What I think is worrisome is that when I look at the government's intention, for example, to cap oil and gas production, I think that would be overkill and would actually deconstruct the carbon pricing mechanism that is agnostic of sectors. I would warn the government to really be careful about this measure.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have two and a bit minutes.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Okay, good.

I'll stay with you, Mr. Asselin, and then I have one more question for Mr. Purdon.

It's not just small businesses, as you referenced, that are being impacted by the climate crisis. It's obviously larger businesses as well. They're saying that the climate crisis will negatively impact their organizations' prosperity over the next three years.

Has your organization surveyed members on this, and if so, are you able to share that with this committee?

[Robert Asselin]

We have not.

What we've done is produce a policy document, “Innovate, compete and win” recently, which I think addressed the climate challenge from an economic perspective and a competitiveness standpoint. I encourage all members to read it.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

If I could switch to Professor Purdon for a quick question, do you feel that Canada is on track to achieve its climate targets in 2030?