Finance Committee on Nov. 13th, 2023

[Benoit Lapointe]

In the regions, there are already a lot of co‑operatives, particularly forestry and agricultural co‑operatives.

That said, the subject is not part of my mandate, today, even though I have a master's degree in co‑operative business management. My role today is to promote something else.

Forestry co‑operatives, for example, are seasonal. Even if companies are organized as co‑operatives, they need employment insurance during the winter in Canada, since we can't plant trees when the ground is frozen. So we need to ensure income support for seasonal workers during the period when employment is impossible in the regions, whether these workers are in co‑operatives or not.

However, I love the co‑operative model, of course.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. Shanahan.

MP Paul-Hus, go ahead, please.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Milliard, I'd like to come back to the recommendations you made in your brief. One of them concerns universal public drug coverage, which is proposed by my NDP colleagues. You say we need to be careful about certain things.

Can you give me more information on that?

[Charles Milliard]

A public drug insurance plan exists in Quebec, and despite some initial difficulties, it works relatively well. It's expensive, but it works well. We would like Quebeckers not to get lost between two programs and for there to be some complementarity between the two plans.

As I understand it, the Quebec plan is still broader than what is proposed in the federal bill. We just need to make sure that the two plans are complementary.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Do you have any insurance-related concerns?

In fact, a large proportion of people have private insurance, such as company group insurance, for example, which reimburses drug-related expenses. Those who don't have access to such a plan have access to the government plan.

What would be the impact of having a universal plan for all Canadians when it comes to insurance and pharmacies?

[Charles Milliard]

The impact would be major. In fact, not only would it cause an earthquake in Quebec's insurance community, but it would also impact the value proposition of employers to employees.

For many employers, the drug benefits they offer set them apart from their competitors. This would have an impact on their ability to compete. Many people in the business community are asking a lot of questions. I would say that our working committee on the issue is one of the most active, along with the life sciences committee, because it's also a sector that needs to be protected in Canada.

Those who live in Montreal, including Mr. Scarpaleggia, may recall that there used to be a thriving pharmaceutical industry on Highway 40 and that now many of those companies have moved to Mississauga.

That's good for the chair.

All in all, the pharmaceutical market in Quebec calls for the utmost vigilance. The implementation of a drug insurance plan will therefore have to be done in collaboration with the partners.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

All right.

Your seventh recommendation concerns the workforce. This is an issue that has been on our minds for several years. We need to find ways to keep people who are reaching retirement age at work.

In your brief, you recommend excluding work income from the Old Age Security pension clawback calculation to basically avoid reducing pensions. We're still coming up against this problem.

Have you determined an annual amount of income, say $10,000 or $15,000 per year, that could be excluded from the calculation to avoid reducing pensions?

[Mathieu Lavigne]

If we had targeted an amount, we would have indicated it in the pre-budget brief.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

All right.

[Mathieu Lavigne]

Some situations can also vary depending on the type of job, depending on the type of professional situation.

In our view, the important thing is not to determine a precise figure ourselves. It's a question of principle. No solution should be ruled out to encourage experienced workers who wish to remain in the workforce, even if only on a part-time basis. The problem is that people want to stay in the job market, but the rules at the moment, in the federal government among others, penalize them if they wish to do so.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Have the chambers of commerce done any evaluations or studies on the number of people who have considered continuing to work, but stop so as not to have their pension reduced, or on the number of people who would like to return to the workforce?

Are there any studies that currently exist in this regard?

[Charles Milliard]

We conducted a survey of our members. We could forward it to the committee.

It's important to say that we don't want everyone aged 60 and over to go back to working 40 hours a week.

The best example I can give is the following.

In a regional hardware store, if a 66-year-old wants to return to work one day a week, this will probably allow the owner to avoid burnout, benefit the person who wants to work, and encourage a better transfer of knowledge to younger employees.

The increase in thresholds, among other things on the tax front, is minimal. It's a positive signal we're sending to people aged 60 and over. We're telling them that, if they want to come back to work, even if only for a few hours, it can turn out to be very positive.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

This would therefore have a favourable impact on the labour market.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Paul-Hus.

Members and witnesses, when we don't have enough time to do another full round—which we don't, as we have about eight minutes or so—we divide the time equally among the parties. Each party will have two minutes to ask their final questions of this excellent first panel.

We're starting with MP Lawrence for two minutes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll go to you, Mr. Milliard.

I want to talk a bit about some recent testimony we heard from the Governor of the Bank of Canada, Tiff Macklem, who said that the fiscal policy—in other words, the Liberal government policy—of massive expenditures is at cross-purposes with monetary policy, which is driving up inflation rates.

You talked in your brief about the need for fiscal equilibrium. Maybe you could also comment on the impact on your members of interest rates increasing, especially given that this government seems unwilling to relent or to work with your members with respect to CEBA and other government programs.

[Mathieu Lavigne]

In our view, as we've explained, interest rates have an impact on companies' investment plans. This is obvious.

I'll give you a very concrete example of the measures we want to put forward. There are a whole host of things that are driving up costs and inflation. Right now, because of the automatic indexation rules, the excise tax on alcohol, which is a very important element for restaurant and hospitality businesses, would increase by over 4%. This is part of the cost structure of these businesses. We therefore recommend that this rate, as it was last year, be limited to 2%, for example.

This is the type of measure we'd like to see the federal government take to limit inflation as much as possible. The more cost structures rise, the more this is reflected in investment projects and companies' financial statements.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Lawrence.

Now we'll go to MP Shanahan for two minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

We haven't yet broached the subject of housing. We want to attract more and more immigrants, newcomers, and even temporary workers, to fill the needs on the labour front.

Mr. Milliard, can you tell us about your proposed solutions to this issue?

[Charles Milliard]

Sizable sums have been announced by the federal government, and rightly so, and the provincial government has proposed equivalent measures. I think the money is available to build thousands of units. The challenges we face are the labour needed to build these homes, as well as the regulatory issues.

We believe that regulatory changes relative to the relationship between the provincial and municipal levels are important to allow for the creation, without going into detail, of secondary suites and the zoning of certain areas.

I was in Rimouski last week, and a very large project is the subject of civil protests over zoning issues. We need to allow cities to have more power over the management of this crisis, because needs differ from city to city. Obviously, there are also major differences between urban and rural environments. This is obviously one of the central elements of the labour shortage.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

How do you see the private and public sectors participating in the creation of affordable housing?

[Charles Milliard]

There must be collaboration. On the question of mixed housing, we have to say yes to the private sector. We're also aware that we need to respond to community needs, particularly when it comes to housing.

The housing crisis is such that this shouldn't just be a business opportunity. It should be an opportunity to redistribute wealth and occupy land across Canada. It's as much a left-wing issue as a right-wing one. So it's a central issue

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. Shanahan

Now we'll have MP Desbiens, please, for two minutes.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to hear from the representatives of the Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec on climate change. Forest fires have affected all forestry companies. They lost huge quantities of equipment during the forest fires. There are also those affected in Baie-Saint-Paul, notably those at Le Genévrier campsite, which also suffered a lot of losses due to flooding.

As early as June, the Bloc Québécois called for a program to help businesses and workers affected by climate change.

What's your position on this? Is this a need we need to address very quickly?

[Mathieu Lavigne]

Yes, we have to take that into account. This was already part of the requests we submitted this summer. The situation has evolved, however. In its budget update, the Quebec government announced new sums and a new business assistance program.

It's important to point out that this doesn't just concern companies in the forestry sector, as you say, but also the whole sector around it, particularly the recreational tourism sector, which has been hit hard.

In our view, the solution would be to see whether we need a new federal program or whether we should simply match the measures to what the Quebec government has implemented, i.e., by stowing the sums in the same vehicle as the Quebec government's program. This would have the advantage of avoiding duplication and creating additional bureaucracy. The need is truly urgent for communities, particularly in Nord-du-Québec, Abitibi-Témiscamingue and Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean, that require reconstruction assistance.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

It's more about financial support as a complement rather than an overlay.

Is that right?