Finance Committee on Nov. 14th, 2023

Evidence of meeting #117 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ontario.

On the agenda

Pre-Budget Consultations in Advance of the 2024 Budget

MPs speaking

Gabriel Ste-Marie

Philip Lawrence

Julie Dzerowicz

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee Mr. Alexandre Roger

Elizabeth Brown As an Individual

Jennifer Gerdt As an Individual

Kelly Gorman As an Individual

Justine Kintanar As an Individual

Erika Campbell As an Individual

Insiya Mankani As an Individual

J.P. Boutros As an Individual

Joseph Polito As an Individual

Eve Paré Executive Director, Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo

Andrew Cash President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Music Association, Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo

Ron Butler Mortgage Broker, Butler Mortgage Inc.

Paul Cheliak Vice-President, Strategy and Delivery, Canadian Gas Association

Lynne Livingstone City Manager, City of London

Scott Courtice Executive Director, London Inter-Community Health Centre, City of London

Alex Ciappara Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

Corinne Pohlmann Executive Vice-President, Advocacy, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Jeff Ferguson Executive Director, Knowledge Mobilization and Transformation, Inclusion Canada

Krista Jones Chief Delivery Officer, Ventures and Ecosystems Group, MaRS Discovery District

Reid McKay Director, Policy Innovation and Fiscal Policy, Toronto Region Board of Trade

Pierre Ouellette President, Université de l'Ontario français

Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

Yes.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

I believe that in your industry the high-cost credit is 32%.

Is that correct? What would you consider to be a high-cost credit?

Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

That sounds about right.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

I just got it off the Internet, so I think we're good.

For $15 for every $100 within the payday loan framework, it's 390% annualized interest for the most vulnerable people, unbanked people, people who, quite frankly, when your industry abandoned inner-city cores, had to turn to these because they couldn't cash things like the ODSP and Ontario Works.

What's your comment on that?

Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

Canadians are well served by Canadian banks. About 99% of Canadians have a bank account, probably the highest percentage in the entire world.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

That's not what I asked you. I asked you a very specific question.

Let's talk about the 1%, the people who have to turn to usury—what I would call “predatory lending” to be polite, and “parasitic lending” to be more accurate.

What do you say about the fact that people have to turn to predatory lending in order to cash their meagre social assistance cheques every single month?

Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

Canadians are able to cash their cheques into their bank account and obtain their—

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Every Canadian can access a mainstream bank?

Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

Yes, they can.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Everyone can, without obstruction or delay?

Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

There are certain requirements, but those requirements are minimal.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Are they minimal enough to exclude a certain percentage of the population?

Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

No.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Is it your assertion here at committee that people are choosing to go to a payday loan rather than cash their monthly cheque at, say, the Bank of Montreal or CIBC? There are no barriers at all. Is that your testimony here today?

Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

Canadians are able to open a bank account, and cash their cheque at their bank.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

What would be a barrier for Canadians to open an account?

Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

Maybe not having the right ID is one example.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Would you agree that 390% is usury?

Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

It's what...?

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Would you call for higher regulations on the predatory payday loan industry?

Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

That is something the government should look at.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Would you consider them under-regulated?

November 14th, 2023 / 12:05 p.m.

Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

Probably.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Do any of the mainstream banks have any financial connections with any of the payday loan industries?

Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

I don't know. I can't comment on the financial dealings of our members.