Finance Committee on Nov. 14th, 2023

[Lynne Livingstone]

I don't think I can comment on that.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay. That's fair enough.

As it relates to federal dollars, you talked about operating funding. Would you agree that in transit, in particular, where the federal government can support the purchase of buses, LRTs or any other things, that operating funding and having that predictable, multi-year budgeting would also be a huge help to municipalities like London?

[Lynne Livingstone]

From a transit perspective...absolutely.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Green. You got a lot in there. It was quick-fire.

We're going to MP Chambers now for five minutes.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

He missed his calling as a prosecutor.

Mr. Cheliak, I have a couple of questions for you, and then I'll go back to Mr. Butler.

As I understand it, renewable natural gas comes from landfills. It could be feedstock from a farm. Once it's done its processing, you can use the existing natural gas infrastructure to put it back into the system. Is that correct?

[Paul Cheliak]

Yes. Renewable natural gas is methane, or CH4. It's the same product that is pulled from our reserves in Canada, so it's just a renewable form of the same molecule that flows through our pipelines to our furnaces today.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Renewable natural gas was not included in the first round of ITC—investment tax credit—eligibility. Is that correct?

[Paul Cheliak]

That is correct.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

The renewable form of a fossil fuel, which is obviously greener than the actual fossil fuel, because we're using feedstock from existing operations or existing activities today, is not eligible for a tax credit that's supposed to green the economy.

[Paul Cheliak]

That's right. In the entire biofuel industry—ethanol, biodiesel and renewable natural gas—there is no ITC currently proposed for any of those.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Do you expect that one will be announced, or are you unsure about what the future holds?

[Paul Cheliak]

Natural Resources Canada was asked to look at the issue, and we've helped it better understand the viability of it and the need for it. Whether or not it comes to fruition is to be determined.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I also heard a stat. I wonder if you can confirm this for me. If 25% of China's coal plants were converted and replaced with LNG, the entire world would see a reduction in emissions equal to the total amount of emissions produced in Canada.

Is that a stat you've ever heard before?

[Paul Cheliak]

It's 20% of coal.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

It's 20%. That's actually even better. If we were to reduce China's coal plants by 20% and replace them with LNG.... It doesn't have to be Canadian LNG but any natural gas. I think we'd like it to be Canadian LNG, or some of us would.

Remember, pollution doesn't recognize borders—that's what we were told at the very beginning of the whole climate discussion—but we could save the entire planet the equivalent of the entire emissions produced by this country every year.

[Paul Cheliak]

That's correct, and maybe I'll build on the stats for you. On the shipping fleet that docks and unloads in Vancouver, if you were to put LNG into those ships versus marine bunkering fuel, you would save the entire emissions of British Columbia if you did it with LNG.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I'm sorry. Is that already happening? For all the ships that are leaving today in the port, if you replace with LNG the existing fuel, the traditional fuel they're using, you'd save the entire emissions of the province of British Columbia.

[Paul Cheliak]

Yes. They fill up in Singapore and Rotterdam. They traverse the ocean, and they dock in Vancouver and unload and go back to their reloading facilities in Asia. If you had LNG versus bunker C, which is quite literally one step above asphalt in the spectrum, you'd save the equivalent of B.C.'s entire GHG emissions inventory.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Wow. You wonder sometimes what we're fighting over.

Mr. Butler, my final question is for you. This may be outside of your area of expertise, but I'm going to try anyway because you mentioned it yesterday on your Twitter.

As a taxpayer, how do you feel about learning about a $1.3-billion courthouse being built in Ottawa that has three courtrooms?

[Ron Butler]

The original budget was a billion dollars, but it's already over budget. It's six or eight years away, so we'd have to guess that it's about $1.3 billion or more. Personally, I think it's crazy. That's all I can say.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Do you think there are better uses for that money?

[Ron Butler]

There are a million different better uses for the money—yes, absolutely.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

There are only three courtrooms there. Is that right?

[Ron Butler]

There are only three courtrooms. That's what the whole plan calls for, just three courtrooms.