Finance Committee on Nov. 14th, 2023

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Message received. Let's hope that policies are adopted for that purpose.

Research is a very important component at the university level. You briefly mentioned that in your presentation. Would you please go back to the situation regarding French-language research at universities in Ontario?

[Pierre Ouellette]

That's an extremely important question.

There are fewer and fewer French-language publications. We can see that. The research shows that there are fewer and fewer scientific publications in French. Obviously, a university such as ours, which is managed by and for francophones and offers programs in French, supports research in French.

Our mandate is to conduct research in French and to publish it in French. However, it's a downward trend because less and less research is being conducted in French at universities, and a university such as the Université de l’Ontario français can help reverse that trend.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Ouellette.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.

Now we'll go to MP Green.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I note that some of the witnesses were here for the last section. Comments were made about my prosecution style of questioning. It will be a prosecution, but it will not be of the witnesses, Mr. Chair.

I'll put this through to Mr. Ferguson, with whom I'm going to spend the bulk of my time.

We heard you speak today about the Canada disability benefit.

I want to share with you that I am very proudly representing Hamilton Centre, a community that has some of the highest density of people living with disabilities. We have organizations like the Disability Justice Network, the Roundtable for Poverty Reduction and countless others, including the Campaign for Adequate Welfare and Disability Benefits, which for decades have been advocating for the dignity of people living within my community.

I want to start there.

You spoke about legislated poverty. Let me ask you this question. How long ago, in your recollection, was the Canada disability benefit introduced? How many days would you estimate?

[Jeff Ferguson]

How many days? Now, that is a good question.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Would you be shocked if I told you that it's been 1,145 days—

[Jeff Ferguson]

No, I would not.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

—since it was first introduced some three years ago?

Would you be shocked that this is a government that introduced, campaigned and ran on it? Many MPs ran on this disability benefit, yet three years later, they still haven't tabled it and still haven't funded it.

In your estimation, over the last three years, what kind of impact has that had for people in Canada living with disabilities?

[Jeff Ferguson]

For quick clarification, the actual benefit legislation has been passed, so that's a good thing.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Funded...?

[Jeff Ferguson]

It hasn't been funded. You are correct.

It is completely devastating. Poverty knows no bounds, and certainly for people with disabilities in Canada, it's a greater level of poverty for them. Stats Canada calculates poverty based on the market basket measure, and even that measure cannot adequately quantify poverty for people with disabilities because it doesn't take into consideration all the additional costs that someone in poverty has. Medication is not taken into consideration. There's accessible transportation and accessible housing. The list goes on. They're costs that the able-bodied do not have that are not taken into consideration.

From a time point of view, it is long lingering. I think we were on a pretty good trajectory once the bill was passed, but we're anxious. We're definitely anxious.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Talk a bit about the timing, which was three years ago. If you recall, we were coming out of the height of COVID. Many members were talking about having amnesty on the $450 billion that went out through wage subsidies, rent subsidies and worker subsidies, yet people living with disabilities were left out.

In your recollection, what was the economy like for people living through COVID with disabilities? We know they are on fixed incomes. In Ontario, ODSP, if I recall, is somewhere around $1,300. Did costs go down for them over COVID?

[Jeff Ferguson]

No, costs certainly went up.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Costs went up. Their wages are legislated. Their income is legislated. It's legislated poverty. It's well below both LICO and the food basket you've identified, yet they had no support in a global crisis. Is that correct?

[Jeff Ferguson]

That is correct. There was an additional amount given to people with disabilities, but for the most part—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It was something like $500.

[Jeff Ferguson]

—provinces and territories clawed back that benefit.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Let's talk about the clawback. How important is it for you?

By the way, as a city councillor, I found it obscene—talking about ODSP, or even Ontario Works for that matter—that there is this mechanism within the provinces so that, if somebody who is on ODSP or Ontario Works finds a bit of meagre employment somewhere, it is immediately clawed back.

Now we have premiers like Doug Ford threaten this in the same regard.

What is your position on the clawback of the Canada disability benefit? How much of a disaster would that be for the federal government to be able to provide people with money, only to see it snapped back by provincial premiers?

[Jeff Ferguson]

Our position, 100%, is against any clawback by any provincial or territorial government. The federal government has been clear with the legislation. It's a supplement, not a subtraction. It's meant to provide people with disabilities with that extra bit of support that they need to get over the poverty line, so if provincial-territorial governments look at it as a subsidy for them, for their own programs, that's a disaster.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It's an absolute disaster. I agree.

I would state that looking at some of the provincial experiments and pilot projects.... Being from the city of Hamilton, you'll recall that we were a pilot city for basic income. Again, that's legislated poverty. It was still below all measures of objective poverty within the province, but it was better. I think about Michael Hampson, who was a disability expert. He was somebody who survived disability. He was an advocate and a champion. I think about the dignity it brought him and others in my community.

I want you in your last 30 seconds to talk about how providing either a disability benefit or a guaranteed basic livable income would not only lift people out of poverty but give every Canadian in this country the dignity they deserve.

[Jeff Ferguson]

I would go back to some of the people we've talked to with disabilities. We did a bit of a consultation process with all people with disabilities around the Canada disability benefit, and we heard from a lot of people. The thing that struck me the most was individuals who spoke about getting by on just one meal a day. Two meals to them would be a luxury. It's not a luxury for us, obviously, but just surviving on basically nil food.... Can you imagine?

This is Canada. This is the country Canada. Why should anybody be starving and living on the streets in poverty in our country? It is unfathomable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Green.

Members and witnesses, we're just moving into our second round of questions. The timing is a little bit different with this round.

We're starting with MP Chambers for five minutes.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I'll stick with Mr. Ferguson, if I can.

There are multiple ways in which we, the government, can support those living with disabilities. You mentioned a significant number of adults with intellectual disabilities. The government has funded over the years supports for employers through Ready, Willing and Able that would help increase labour force participation.

Are there any investments you think the government could continue to make in that category that would help those who are able to work to enter the workforce?

[Jeff Ferguson]

Thanks for the question.

The government has certainly funded the Ready, Willing and Able program, which is a program under Inclusion Canada and the Autism Alliance of Canada, and we're quite thankful for that. We have a great program that's country-wide, working with national employers and even some local employers. The assistance there has certainly helped.

When you look at people with intellectual disabilities, you see their employment rate is very low. It's about 20% or so compared to 75% to 85% for the average Canadian. Any additional support that all levels of government can provide to programs like that is very beneficial, because it gets them off income support and into employment, paying taxes and contributing to the economy.

One thing that we've indicated in our budget brief around the Canada disability benefit, which has an employment aspect, is generous employment exemption areas—the GIS, for example, or the old age security plan. Most income support programs have an exemption for employment. I think the OAS is $21,000. We're suggesting somewhere around $35,000, which is very generous. It enables someone who has a disability to actually go and work and contribute to the economy up to a certain level before their support would be reduced. That's an employment measure that we've put before this committee for the Canada disability benefit, actually.