Finance Committee on Nov. 15th, 2023

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

It's for new construction but not necessarily for first-time buyers. Is that correct?

[Lanny McInnes]

It could be for first-time buyers.

The CHBA has been calling for a return to 30-year amortization for a number of years. They've modified their ask after feedback through, I believe, discussions with this committee and with the finance department, amending it to a recommendation that it be for new construction only.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Can I ask you about that? You and so many who have come to our committee have spoken about the need to increase supply, and this is one of the themes in your presentation.

I'm always thinking about measures like this—and there are others that have been recommended to us—and what the impact might be on demand. It's helping a certain group of folks, because it makes mortgages more accessible. That's what I hear you saying, which makes a lot of sense.

Because it would bring more people into the market to potentially purchase a home, does it increase housing prices further? Do you have a thought on what it would do to housing prices?

[Lanny McInnes]

I do, and I touched on the continuum of housing in my previous answer. You have primarily a first-time homebuyer who is a renter moving into home ownership. What the recommendation looks at doing is increasing the supply of new home construction when homeowners or first-time buyers are constructing new homes, increasing the supply and allowing people to move up the continuum. The effect should be the opposite of rising prices, because it's increasing the supply available in the housing stock for people to move from being renters to homeowners. It should do the exact opposite.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

What I hear you saying is that it would motivate or enable people—let's put it that way—and would provide incentives for people to build more homes. Also, if people are able to then move into the newly constructed home you talked about, they're liberating a housing unit. It could be a rental unit or one they already own, but either way, they're liberating a unit that can be used for somebody else. This would unlock a greater housing supply and would therefore not impact prices. That's what I hear you saying. Is that correct?

[Lanny McInnes]

That's correct.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you for that, MP Baker.

We'll now go to MP Ste-Marie.

Everybody, if you did not see them, you have interpretation devices, if required, for French and English.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Greetings to all the witnesses, and thank you for being here.

Once again, we have a very informative panel.

My first questions are for you, Mr. Roy.

You represent Colleges and Institutes Canada, that is to say non-university post-secondary institutions. Can you tell us how many members you have in Manitoba?

You raised the issue of the housing crisis affecting students. Would you say that this crisis is enough to keep students from pursuing higher education? How would you describe the situation, particularly in Manitoba?

[Alain Roy]

Our association represents 140 institutions across the country. In Manitoba, I believe there are about 10 institutions, including the Red River College Polytechnic, the Assiniboine Community College, the Université de Saint-Boniface with its École technique et professionnelle, and other organizations in the province.

The very real housing crisis is affecting domestic and international students.

I think what you're referring is that international students might hesitate to come to our country, given this crisis. Yes, I think it's starting to have an impact. Obviously, students take various factors into account before deciding where to go to study.

In Canada, we have a high-quality education system with good supports; we provide students with employment opportunities during and after their studies. It's really attractive. However, we must also be able to welcome them. We have always done so, and we continue to do so, but there is now more pressure, since many more national and international students are having trouble finding affordable housing. That is why we are asking for an investment of $2.6 million, which would create some 40,000 affordable housing units for students across the country.

Under the national housing strategy, we are currently talking about 160,000 affordable housing units. We're not saying that this is the perfect solution to the problem, but I think targeted investment in students would be a wise choice.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Understood. Thank you very much.

You talked about a request to increase the Canada social transfer, which contains funding for higher education. The way I see it, it's the poor relation of transfers.

Could you remind us of the needs of higher education institutions, particularly those of the colleges you represent? Could you also tell us how the federal contribution could be improved in that regard?

[Alain Roy]

Overall, the federal contribution has remained fairly constant at about 3% per year. I think that should be confirmed and increased in the next negotiations. A 3% increase tied to gross domestic product should be the minimum.

Ten years ago, the province provided 30% of the funding for institutions, while tuition fees accounted for about 10%. The tuition paid by Canadian and international students now accounts for more than 30% of the funding for institutions, or nearly a third, while the province provides roughly 20% of their funding.

So it is important to us to see not only a minimum increase in the Canada Social Transfer, but also information sharing agreements with the provinces. That would provide an understanding of the situation so that governments and institutions know where they stand and would ensure a level of transparency regarding funding. The funding must reach postsecondary institutions, among other things.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

One of the concerns that is often raised is access to postsecondary education, particularly with the increase in tuition fees. As you said, tuition fees account for an increasing share of the funding for institutions. I suspect that might affect colleges and institutes even more significantly since some young people have to decide whether or not to pursue vocational training. Your members have the advantage of being on the ground. In some cases, they might live with their parents, which can also reduce transportation costs. Nonetheless, part of the funding that was previously provided by government must now be billed directly to students.

To what extent might this limit access to postsecondary education?

[Alain Roy]

It can certainly impede access.

The college and institutes sector is very accessible right now. We are there for anyone who wants to learn. Tuition fees are still relatively affordable, even though they had to increase. For Canadian students, there are provincial policies that cap tuition fees. That forces the institutions to increase tuition for international students. That is where we might become less competitive with other international markets, which can also attract international students.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.

The time goes quickly.

We'll have MP Blaikie, please.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank everybody for joining us here this morning. It's a real pleasure to perform some of my work as a finance committee member at home in Winnipeg.

Ms. Jackson, I see some startling numbers regarding where Manitoba's at on health human resources. We have heard similar numbers, if not exactly the same ones, from various parts of the country. I'm wondering if you want to speak a bit more to the role you see for the federal government in convening and resourcing provinces to have a proper national health human resource strategy so that we don't have 10 provincial strategies predicated on poaching from each other or competing in an unconstructive way against each other. Then we're all pushing in the same direction and trying to ensure that no matter where you live in the country, there's an adequate number of nurses and other health care professionals where and when you need them.

[Darlene Jackson]

Thank you for the question.

One of my comments was going to be that we have to set up a system where we are not poaching from each other.

This is a global nursing shortage. Speaking nationally, we are seeing incentives across the country. If you go to work in northern Newfoundland or in Labrador, it's an additional $25 an hour. Windsor, Ontario, is offering $25,000 more to work there. This is all drawing nurses, especially young nurses who have no hold where they are, to try other things.

The agency is another huge issue. What we are finding in nursing right now is that we are losing so many nurses out of our public health care system to the agency. There is definitely compensation. We are hearing that in northern B.C. a nurse is getting $180 an hour. There are some long-term care facilities in Ontario where the employer is paying $300 an hour for an RN. Try to compete with that as a public health care system. That's a huge issue.

We're also seeing nurses leave our public health care system to go to the agency because in the agency, you're not mandated to work. I can tell you that right now in Manitoba, 16-hour shifts are becoming the norm. There are many facilities where we're seeing nurses working 24-hour shifts. Work-life balance is a huge issue for nurses. We are seeing many nurses move to the agency over work-life balance.

I think we need a national health human resources program, specifically to look at how to stop the poaching from province to province and how to make every province attractive for nurses to stay in. We also need a national look at how to stop the use of agency nurses.

I really do salute Quebec for its stand on eventually phasing out and banning agencies. I don't think banning agencies completely is going to work because there are facilities that would not be open if we were not using agency nurses. However, I think it has to be a national program. If we don't do that, those agencies will just move from Quebec, and there will be more agency nurses in Ontario or Manitoba.

I firmly believe that private agencies are the cancer in our health care system right now.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Private agencies obviously benefit from well-trained professional nurses being available. Could you explain to the committee the extent to which they contribute to the training and development of new nurses?

[Darlene Jackson]

They don't contribute at all. They basically exploit nurses who have been trained in a public system or in a university. The problem with agency nurses is that there is no continuity of care. There is very little accountability when it comes to those nurses, who come and go.

I can personally speak to an experience with agency nurses. My mom was on a rehab unit in central Manitoba and had some very complex medical issues. Every day I would see her, I would see a new nurse there. I just assumed they had a lot of part-time nurses or casuals. I found out that it was an agency nurse every day, so every day I would go in and educate the nurse on some of my mom's issues, like what she preferred to eat if she wasn't eating. Every day I would go and re-educate.

One of the agency nurses told me he was leaving Swan River and going to Gilbert Plains to work a shift the next day, and I finally asked, “Are there not enough shifts here?” He said, “Oh yes, I could work here every day, but we make our money on travel.” That's mileage and travel time. What we see is nurses dropping in from facility to facility and doing one shift. There is absolutely no continuity of care and, as far as I'm concerned, no accountability for the cost of travelling from facility to facility. It is a big problem.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much for that.

Do I have a bit of time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have 45 seconds.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Really briefly, on another health care issue, access to prescription drugs, I'm wondering if you want to speak to the importance of a national single-payer universal pharmacare plan.

[Darlene Jackson]

That is something CFNU absolutely advocates and supports. As nurses, we see patients splitting meds, taking their meds every second day. The cost of meds for many of our pensioners, seniors or individuals on disability is ridiculous. We see the effect in our hospitals of individuals who are not taking their prescriptions or their medications properly because of cost.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

Members, remember that we have a tight timeline. We have to leave here at 12, but we have just enough time for a second round. We're starting with MP Lawrence.

You have five minutes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to start with a bit of carbon tax math. There was confusion in the earlier panel, but it's important, I think, for the question I'm going to ask you, Ms. Verwey.

In 2019, the carbon tax was $20 a tonne. This spring, it will go up by four times to $80. That's a quadrupling of the carbon tax, just so we're all clear on that.

In the absence of Bill C-234 going through, how will an $80-a-tonne carbon tax affect your members?