Finance Committee on Nov. 17th, 2023

[Treska Watson]

I think my message is similar to my remarks that I made in the beginning, and that is that we are in a crisis and there is no end in sight. The numbers I cited today were from March 2023, and that is a long time ago now in the food landscape. We are seeing unprecedented growth in terms of users of food banks. If that will help, I would very much like the holdup to be expedited.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Thank you, MP Hallan.

Now we'll go to MP Baker, please.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I thank all of you for being here. It's wonderful to have this diverse group of folks here. I wish I had the time to ask all of you some questions, but I'll do my best to get in as many questions as I can. Thanks to all of you for your input.

I'm Yvan Baker. I'm the member of Parliament for Etobicoke Centre. Etobicoke used to be its own municipality and is now amalgamated as part of the City of Toronto. If you ever fly into Pearson Airport in Toronto and you're heading towards the downtown, you drive through my suburban community on either side of the highway, almost immediately as you leave Pearson. That's the best way that I can describe—briefly—where it is.

Look, we're here really to listen to all of you and to get your input. I hate walking away, though, with folks having a misunderstanding of what the government is doing. I think Mr. Hallan spoke to some things that are happening that maybe weren't characterized accurately. I just want to make sure that I get that message across before I get to my questions.

The pause on the carbon tax is for everybody across Canada. It's not just for Atlantic Canadians. It's on home heating oil. The reason it was done on home heating oil is that it's the most expensive form of heating, but it's also the most damaging to the environment. It was clear that the transition, the carbon tax, was meant for us all to adapt, to change our behaviours so we can save our planet, but in the case of home heating oil, because it's so expensive to transition, folks weren't able to transition. That's why that pause was put in place, along with a top-up to the rural rebate, again, to help rural folks across Canada, and it is just a pause. It's for three years and then it will come back into place.

The other thing I would say is that I think we have to remember one thing: We think of the carbon tax as just a tax. It's framed that way a lot of the time. The reality is that the money gets rebated back to Canadians and 80% of Canadians get back from that more than they pay. When anybody says, “Let's get rid of the carbon tax”, they're also advocating to get rid of the rebate. The 80% of Canadians who benefit most from that rebate are the low- or middle-income Canadians. The carbon tax is not just an environmental measure. It's actually an affordability measure as well. I just want us all to be conscious of that as we talk about this issue and we think about the affordability challenges that so many constituents face in all our ridings.

The last thing I'll say.... We had a witness yesterday in Edmonton who spoke to this and asked, what the cost of inaction is, of not acting on climate change. What will the affordability crisis and the economic crisis look like, or the challenges businesses are going to face, etc.? I wanted to provide that context in light of the comments that were made.

In terms of my questions, I want to turn to Martin Normand, if I could.

Mr. Normand, it's good to see you again. In my riding of Etobicoke Centre, the francophone community is relatively small. For my fellow citizens and all other Canadians who are not francophone, can you explain why it's important to support French-language education, particularly at the post-secondary level?

[Martin Normand]

Thank you for the question.

Bilingual students or those who have received training in French at one of the institutions in our network will indeed be able to offer services in French and help alleviate labour shortages in francophone communities, but it goes far beyond that.

In her testimony, Ms. Anderson alluded to the need for talent recruitment, research, innovation and requalification. This is work that our establishments do in collaboration with English-speaking establishments. Of course, there are also collaborations with large majority-language institutions.

At the end of the day, if we're able to increase the proportion of students who have access to post-secondary education, we're acting directly on the challenges associated with the research needs to support cutting-edge sectors of industry, regardless of the language spoken.

We need a post-secondary education system that allows all students, whether French or English-speaking, the chance to access this level of training. This will enable them to be active citizens in all sectors of industry, whether in French-speaking or English-speaking communities.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay. Thank you very much.

You talked about labour and the fact that the lack of labour has a big impact on our economy.

Can you talk a little about the importance of French-language education and how that affects the economic situation in Canada?

[Martin Normand]

I'll share some data with you. For example, in Canada, the average salary of people educated in both French and English is generally higher than that of unilingual English speakers. So there's a purchasing power associated with being trained in French and evolving in French in communities across the country. This obviously has an impact on communities. However, wherever there's a shortage of labour, there's a drop in productivity and reduced access to services, among other things.

Let's take the example of a health care system that is obliged to offer health services in French. If the professionals in place don't speak French, this can lead to misdiagnoses and treatment errors. For the health care system, it will cost more to correct these errors, which were made because French-speaking or bilingual professionals were not present. It's the same in various sectors of the economy.

Let's not forget the huge demand for French immersion programs. Across the country, we need to train teachers who will be able to work well in these schools and offer training in French in a way that meets the needs and aspirations of students and their parents. Francophone institutions across the country are at the forefront of teacher training, and will be able to contribute to finding adequate responses to the need for access to French-language education across the country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Baker.

Now we'll hear questions from MP Ste-Marie, please.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to all the witnesses. They are wonderful people. They've given us a lot of very pertinent information. Unfortunately, due to time constraints, we won't have the opportunity to put all our questions to each of the witnesses. That said, I'd like to reassure them: we've taken note of their demands and will pass them on to the minister so that she can take them into account in the next budget. It's a real pleasure for me to talk to today's witnesses.

Mr. Normand, thank you for joining us. I'd also like to thank you for your statement.

You talked about the importance of the sums announced to address the underfunding of the institutions you represent. Your first recommendation calls on the government to fulfil its promise to provide $80 million per year on a permanent basis.

Why is this important? What difference would it make?

[Martin Normand]

Thank you.

Over the past two years, the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne, or ACUFC, has conducted a major Canada-wide consultation process. The process is called “États généraux sur le postsecondaire en contexte francophone minoritaire au Canada”. The result is a final report containing 32 recommendations on how to sustain, support and develop the French-language post-secondary sector. This requires a variety of partners, with the federal government at the forefront.

It's important to understand that French-language post-secondary institutions across the country, especially those outside Quebec, are generally smaller than the majority. Being smaller and operating in a minority context implies additional costs for the delivery of education, as well as obstacles when it comes to achieving economies of scale within institutions. These institutions don't have the same clientele either, which means they don't have as much self-generated income as those in the majority. This puts them at a disadvantage from the outset.

We need a permanent funding program to support them, not only so that they can remain open, since in some post-secondary institutions there have been serious fears and consequences linked to funding issues, but also so that they can continue to develop and offer the programs that will meet tomorrow's needs.

In our network of French-language schools outside Quebec, we found that there were very few programs in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, or STEM, because these are expensive programs. Institutions don't always have the resources to set up laboratories, hire people and obtain the necessary materials in French to teach these cutting-edge disciplines. If institutions want to offer post-secondary education programs in French, they have to incur additional expenses.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Okay. Thank you, that's very clear.

Before I ask my second question, I'll introduce myself, because I forgot to do so. My name is Gabriel Ste‑Marie and I'm the member of Parliament for Joliette, a city and rural riding northeast of Montreal, about a 45‑minute drive. I'm also finance critic for my political party.

Mr. Normand, you talked about the importance of federal immigration targets to preserve the demographic weight of francophones. You said that francophone post-secondary institutions could help achieve these targets.

Can you explain that further?

[Martin Normand]

Year in, year out, close to 5,000 international students attend our institutions. They generally come from much more diverse markets, compared to the clientele that attends English-language institutions. They mainly come from sub-Saharan Africa and the Maghreb.

According to an ACUFC survey conducted in 2020, over 90% of the international students who attend our institutions wish to remain in Canada after completing their studies. You'll understand that this represents an important pool from which to increase the federal government's action in terms of francophone immigration. By way of comparison, at mainstream institutions, according to the Canadian Bureau for International Education, around 40% of students want to stay in Canada.

Our French-language institutions are doing extra work to attract and retain students, and to help them make the transition to permanent residency, in far greater proportions than the majority of English-language institutions. This pool is renewed year after year and, as I'm sure you've heard, the number of applications to post-secondary institutions across the country, in all languages, is growing rapidly. So it's a significant pool.

If Canada wants to act on francophone immigration targets, it must support the work of institutions in recruiting students and transitioning them to permanent residency.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

That's very clear. Thank you very much.

In connection with that, I'd like to remind you of the problems encountered by French-speaking foreign students when they apply for visas from the Department of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC. We do a lot of work to change the situation. It seems to be improving a little, but the refusal rate for French-speaking clients is very high. So we have to take this into consideration.

In your second recommendation, you suggest creating a federal post-secondary scholarship program for students whose first language is French.

Why is it important to create a program for these students?

[Martin Normand]

In the Action Plan for Official Languages 2018‑2023, the government announced the creation of a bursary program for French-as-a-second-language students, that is, students from immersion schools or English-language school boards who want to study in French at the post-secondary level. This is most commendable. ACUFC manages this program, and it's a great success.

However, we see an inequity in that no equivalent program exists for francophones, in a context where francophone students studying in French in Canada end up with more debt than anglophone students. One of the reasons for this is that, to access French-language post-secondary institutions, they have to travel longer distances, which means additional costs. We just want an equivalent program to correct this inequity and facilitate access to post-secondary studies in French across the country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Normand and Mr. Ste‑Marie.

Now we'll go to our B.C. MP, Peter Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you to all the witnesses for being with us today.

I'm Peter Julian. I'm the member of Parliament for New Westminster—Burnaby. I'm particularly pleased to see two of my constituents—two of my bosses—here, Mr. Armstrong and also Mr. Dobrovolny from Metro Vancouver. I'll be on my best behaviour.

I'd like to start with you Mr. Armstrong.

You cited the real source of the crisis that we're seeing in affordable housing across this country. You talked about the last few years. In the last 17 years, under the Conservative mandate and then the Liberal mandate, we lost over a million affordable housing units, as you know. We lost 800,000 under the Conservatives and 200,000 under the Liberals. It provoked this massive crisis.

The NDP caucus has been pushing hard to ensure that the indigenous housing fund is set up and to take the GST off co-operative housing.

You referenced two particular recommendations, the federal acquisition fund and the co-op housing fund. How important is it to move immediately on those two funds to ensure that we can actually preserve the affordability that remains but also start building co-operative housing and affordable housing across the country again?

[Thom Armstrong]

I'll start with the second one.

It's critical. The last prime minister to launch a unilateral, federal co-op housing program was Brian Mulroney, so it's been far too long since we built co-ops to contribute to communities and build strong, diverse, supportive homes for people of a great mix of incomes. I would say that the promise was made in March 2022. The money was carved out of the co-investment fund and the rental construction financing initiative. All that needs to happen is the program be launched from the minister's desk, and we urge that to happen.

On the acquisition side, this is the frequently ignored part of the housing crisis. Everyone wants to talk about new supply, which is important. We need to roll out that new supply. However, if we're losing three to five homes for every new home that we're building, we're losing net affordability in our housing economy. The Province of British Columbia has taken a historic step in creating a $500-million rental protection fund that it is not administering itself. It's administering it through a partnership in the community housing sector. You will hear from us in the next three to six weeks that we will have achieved two-thirds of the two-year mandate that was given to that fund inside of the first six months. We'll protect 2,000 homes at rent levels from $750 to $1,200 per month. It's a critical piece of the housing puzzle.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much. Thank you for referencing the B.C. NDP government, of course, which builds more affordable housing than the rest of the country combined. It's a really good example right across the country.

I would like to move on to Mr. Harvie and Mr. Dobrovolny from Metro Vancouver.

You cited Iona Island. Thank you for the work that Metro Vancouver has been doing on affordable housing. What happens if the federal government continues to stall on stepping up to fund both that important environmental initiative on Iona Island but also more affordable housing?

[George Harvie]

It's very clear that the existing plant, as you know, is extremely old. It's outdated, and it can't support much more volume insofar as delivery of sewage for treatment. We will not be able to meet the housing demands for new units in the city of Vancouver and some outlying areas. It's just very clear. It's at its end of life. We need to move forward.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

It needs to happen now.

[George Harvie]

It needs to be supported immediately.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'll move on to Ms. Watson.

We know that over half of the people who are homeless in this country are people with disabilities. Parliament has adopted a Canada disability benefit, but the government has stalled implementing it and actually making sure that people with disabilities across this country have access to that fund.

What difference would it make if the government acted immediately in the next budget to actually put in place benefits for people with disabilities across the country so that every Canadian with a disability actually had access to the disability benefit?

[Treska Watson]

There's no question that it would have an impact on those folks immediately. That is one of the largest groups of people we serve in the work we do. I think immediate changes of that nature would be necessary. I think that would have a huge impact.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Yes.

Is your advice to the finance committee to recommend immediate implementation of the disability benefit over the next few months?

[Treska Watson]

That would be incredible, yes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to move on to Ms. Anderson.

Thank you for the work that you do. I'm always pleased, at every federal election, to participate in the candidates forum that you put on.

You talked about tax reform. We know that the PBO, the Parliamentary Budget Officer, has indicated that we lose over $30 billion in tax revenues to overseas tax havens. You pointed out that investments in housing and investments in infrastructure are critical.

How important is it that we end these loopholes that allow over $30 billion of taxpayers' money to go to overseas tax havens, which disadvantages Canadian businesses that are paying their fair share of taxes and disadvantages the federal government from making investments that are so important, as you've underscored?