Evidence of meeting #121 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was grocery.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Amanda Riddell  Director, Real Property and Financial Institutions, Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Mark Schaan  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry
Pierre Mercille  Director General, Sales Tax Legislation, Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Ian Lee  Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
Keldon Bester  Exective Director, Canadian Anti-Monopoly Project
Marie-Josée Houle  Federal Housing Advocate, Office of the Federal Housing Advocate, Canadian Human Rights Commission
Matthew Boswell  Commissioner of Competition, Competition Bureau Canada
Timothy Ross  Executive Director, Co-operative Housing Federation of Canada
Sara Eve Levac  Lawyer, Option consommateurs
Carlos Castiblanco  Economist and Analyst, Option consommateurs
Anthony Durocher  Deputy Commissioner, Competition Promotion Branch, Competition Bureau Canada
Samir Chhabra  Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Brett Capwell  Committee Researcher

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You say that the government wants to tackle the causes or the effects. However, there are special situations. I will give you an example. In remote regions such as Nunavut or elsewhere in the north, or even in certain rural regions, no competition is possible simply because it is not profitable. The prohibition on anti-competitive practices does not make a lot of sense for the communities living there.

So it is not logical to impose rules to eliminate the possibility of using a monopoly position to raise prices unreasonably.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I will start by thanking you for making your comment in French.

You make a good point. During a meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance, the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-food, or the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology—I am not certain which committee it was, I heard several things on this subject.

Representatives of the Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers, which represents about 6,900 members across Canada, said that one of the most complex problems concerns grocers in remote regions or in rural regions. They gave examples in northern Saskatchewan, if I recall correctly, and northern Alberta, or even indigenous communities living in the north. The dynamic in those places is even more complex.

I would say that given the powers that would be granted by Bill C-56, we should consider undertaking a study on this subject.

What is concerning is that the big food product manufacturers are sometimes less inclined to sell to independent grocers. A shortage, such as we experienced during the COVID‑19 pandemic, then causes problems. I was told that there were products available in big chains in a city located in a remote region while the independent grocer carrying on business in the same city did not have access to them.

The fact that food product manufacturers gave priority to the big chains over independent grocers should be the subject of a study by a committee. I am not persuaded that the motion that has been made, or Bill C-352 sponsored by Mr. Singh, would necessarily have the desired effect. I think the cause has to be tackled.

The cause may have been connected with the contracts that favour the big chains at the expense of independent grocers. There may be a study to be done to get a better understanding of the market dynamic.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Would the changes made by Bill C-56 mean that you, as minister, would be able to initiate an investigation or ask the Competition Bureau to do so?

Would you be prepared to initiate that kind of study once you have the powers proposed in Bill C-56?

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

That is a very good question.

In the last study done by the Competition Bureau we saw that there were missing pieces. The Competition Bureau does not have the necessary powers. I want to congratulate its representatives on the work they have done in spite of those flaws.

Mr. Blaikie, you can be sure want to know more about this. I want to do more and get to the bottom of things. That is why Bill C-56 is so important to me. With the powers it provides, I think we will be able to do more to get to the bottom of things in relation to what the report we received today says. Ultimately, we did not have the investigative power that would have enabled us to move forward.

So I do really want to go further.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Could I say, walking out of here, that the minister committed to using his powers to look into the question?

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

You can say that the minister will judiciously use the new powers given under Bill C-56 and work with committee members any day of the week.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

That's not quite a yes. I'd love to hear a yes or a oui.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

However, I'm very committed.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Very well.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Blaikie.

I thank you too, Minister, for coming and talking to us about Bill C-56.

You packed a lot into this hour. We got a lot of questions out.

Thank you for your testimony on this study. We appreciate it.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for your chairmanship. I must say that, in my nine years as a member of Parliament and many years as a minister, the way you conduct hearings is probably the most conducive to allowing a fair discussion between ministers and members.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you.

We're suspended for a transition right now, members.

November 20th, 2023 / 6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

I call this meeting back to order.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, November 23, 2023, the committee is resuming its study of Bill C-56, an act to amend the Excise Tax Act and the Competition Act.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses.

From the Department of Finance, we have Pierre Mercille, director general for sales tax legislation, tax policy branch; and Amanda Riddell, director of real property and financial institutions, tax policy branch.

From the Department of Industry, we have Mark Schaan, senior assistant deputy minister for the strategy and innovation policy sector, who was with the minister also; Samir Chhabra, director general of the marketplace framework policy branch; and Martin Simard, senior director in the strategy and innovation policy sector.

Welcome to all of you.

They have all joined us and there are no opening statements or remarks. We are going to go right into members' questions. In this first round, as the officials would know, it's six minutes per party.

We are starting with MP Morantz for the first six minutes.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here.

Today we're talking about the affordable housing and groceries act. I just want to frame this a bit from the perspective of the average Canadian who has eagerly tuned in to watch this meeting tonight and to hear us talk about this act.

Maybe I will start with you, Ms. Riddell.

Do you think it would be true to say that when they hear the name of the act, they would assume that, if it is passed, it will make housing more affordable and groceries more affordable? Would that be a reasonable assumption?

6:05 p.m.

Amanda Riddell Director, Real Property and Financial Institutions, Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

I'm sorry, but can you repeat your question?

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Would it be fair to say, from the perspective of Canadians who are tuned in, that once the affordable housing and groceries act passes, they could expect housing and groceries to be more affordable?

6:05 p.m.

Director, Real Property and Financial Institutions, Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Amanda Riddell

In my case, the measure in here to speak about is the purpose-built rental rebate.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

I'm sorry. Just on my question, though.... When average Canadians hear the name of the act, the affordable housing and groceries act, would it be safe for them to assume that, if it were passed, housing and groceries would be more affordable from their perspective?

6:05 p.m.

Director, Real Property and Financial Institutions, Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Amanda Riddell

I don't know what their perspective would be.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Okay.

6:05 p.m.

Director, Real Property and Financial Institutions, Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Amanda Riddell

I'm familiar with the measure that I'm here to speak about.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Perhaps I'll just move on, then.

Would the enhanced rebate apply to someone who purchases an individually owned condominium unit?

6:05 p.m.

Director, Real Property and Financial Institutions, Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Amanda Riddell

No, it wouldn't.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Would it apply to someone who purchases single-unit housing?

6:05 p.m.

Director, Real Property and Financial Institutions, Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Amanda Riddell

No, it wouldn't.