Evidence of meeting #124 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rates.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tiff Macklem  Governor, Bank of Canada
Carolyn Rogers  Senior Deputy Governor, Bank of Canada

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

It's great to see everybody in a good mood here for 2024. I call this meeting to order and welcome the governor and the senior deputy governor.

We're resuming meeting number 124 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, January 30, 2024, the committee is meeting to discuss the report of the Bank of Canada on monetary policy.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to Standing Order 15.1. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. For all of those who are attending in person or virtually, we have gone through the health and safety remarks.

We now welcome Governor Tiff Macklem and Senior Deputy Governor Carolyn Rogers for their opening remarks, following which we will have members' questions.

Welcome.

11:30 a.m.

Tiff Macklem Governor, Bank of Canada

Thank you and good morning.

I'm very pleased to be here with Senior Deputy Governor Carolyn Rogers to discuss the monetary policy report we published last week, as well as the decision we took. Last week, we maintained our policy interest rate at 5%. We are also continuing our policy of quantitative tightening.

Our message is twofold.

First, monetary policy is working to relieve price pressures, and we need to stay the course. Inflation is coming down as higher interest rates restrain demand in the economy. However, inflation is still too high, and underlying inflationary pressures persist. We need to give these higher interest rates time to do their work.

Second, with overall demand in the economy no longer running ahead of supply, our governing council's discussion of monetary policy is shifting from whether our policy rate is restrictive enough to restore price stability to how long it needs to stay at the current level.

Let me give you some economic context for these considerations and talk about the implications for monetary policy.

Economic growth stalled in the middle of 2023. For many Canadians, the combination of higher prices and higher interests rates has been difficult. Past interest rate increases have helped the economy rebalance, and this is relieving price pressures. Lower energy prices and improvements in global supply chains have also helped to bring inflation down. Growth is expected to remain flat in the near term.

With weak demand in the economy, upward pressure on prices should continue to moderate, and inflation is expected to ease further. The share of CPI components that are rising faster than 3% has declined substantially and should continue to normalize. However, tightness in some parts of the economy is continuing to hold inflation up. The most prominent of these is housing. Inflation in shelter services remains high, close to 7%, because of rising mortgage interests costs, higher rents and other housing costs. While food prices are not increasing as fast as they were, food price inflation is still about 5%. Finally, inflation in services excluding shelter has improved, but there are signs that price pressures remain.

All this push-and-pull on inflation means that further declines in inflation will likely be gradual and uneven. That suggests that the path back to 2% inflation will be slow, and risks remain.

Overall, our outlook for both growth and inflation is largely unchanged from October. Growth is expected to be modest in 2024. It will be weak before picking up around the middle of the year and rising to about 2.5% in 2025.

With downward and upward forces largely offsetting in the near term, CPI inflation is expected to remain close to 3% over the first half of 2024. It's then expected to ease to about 2.5% by year end and return to target in 2025.

Let me give you a sense of the governing council's monetary policy deliberations.

At the time of our decision last week, there was a clear consensus to maintain the policy interest rate at 5%. We also discussed where we see the economy and inflation going and what that could mean for monetary policy going forward.

One thing is clear. The council's discussions are shifting from whether the rates are restrictive enough to how long to maintain them at their current level.

If new developments push inflation higher, we may still need to raise rates. However, if the economy evolves broadly in line with last week's projection, future discussions will be about how long the policy interest rate must remain at 5%.

The governing council is concerned about the persistence of strong underlying inflation. We want to see inflationary pressures continue to ease and clear downward momentum in underlying inflation.

We also discussed the risks to the economy and inflation. We're trying to balance the risks of over- and under-tightening. We don't want to cool the economy more than necessary, but we don't want Canadians to have to continue to live with elevated inflation, either. We remain focused on a number of indicators of underlying inflationary pressures, and we need to see further and sustained easing of core inflation. With the economy now looking to be in modest excess supply, demand pressures have abated and corporate pricing behaviour has continued to normalize. At the same time, measures of near-term inflation expectations and wage growth suggest that underlying inflationary pressures remain.

Let me conclude. We've come a long way from the inflation peak in 2022. Monetary policy is working and we need to continue to let it work. We remain resolute in our commitment to return inflation to the 2% target.

With that summary, Mr. Chair, we would be pleased to take your questions.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Governor, for your opening remarks. Thank you for coming before the finance committee. It's the first time in 2024, and I know the members have many questions.

Members, I know there are certain subjects you want to get into with the governor. They may need more fulsome answer time, so I will be quite lenient in terms of timing, in order to provide the ability for the governor to answer and for the members to pose their questions.

With that, we're going to MP Hallan as our first questioner.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you once again, Governor and Deputy Governor, for being here. Unlike the finance minister, you're making yourselves accessible to this committee.

Governor, my question is this. A few short months ago in this committee, you said the government's fiscal policy and your monetary policy were rowing in opposite directions. Was that still a factor when you made your decision last week to hold rates?

11:35 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

With respect to fiscal policy, we take in the budget plans of all levels of government. We build those into our forecasts. You can see those in our monetary policy report. Therefore, yes, we factored in government spending plans. This is contributing to growth in the economy, which is something we factored into our decision.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

Thank you.

More specifically—because I'm very interested in those factors you talked about—was it new expenditures and just the level of growth, or was it cumulative of everything from before? What were some of those specific factors you looked at?

11:35 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

Well, let me talk about what we see.

Let me back up for a second. As I've said many times, fiscal policy decisions are not the purview of the Bank of Canada—

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

That's fair.

11:35 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

They're made by parliamentarians.

What we do is take the spending plans this government has given and build those into our outlook.

If you look at spending in 2023 for all levels of government, real government spending on goods and services grew at about 2%, which is roughly in line with the growth potential, most of which is population growth.

If you look ahead to the next year, based on published plans, we estimate that government spending will be growing at around two and a quarter per cent. Therefore, it will still be roughly in line with potential. It will be a little on the high side—

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

I'm sorry, but I have limited time. I appreciate the explanation.

Those are obviously pressures on you or a part of the bigger picture when you look at lowering rates or keeping them the same. If those same pressures of, as you said, fiscal and monetary policy working against each other right now were eased by having a lower deficit in terms of spending by the government, would that factor into lowering the rates?

11:35 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

I was actually getting to the “go forward” strategy. With government spending estimated to be growing by around two and a quarter per cent, it's a little above potential. We built that into our forecast. You can see how inflation comes down gradually in our forecast.

That being said, it's already at the upper end of potential. Therefore, if governments were to add more spending, it could start to get in the way of getting inflation back down, and that would not be helpful.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

Definitely.

Just recently in The Globe and Mail, there was a report about expenditures. We know that in the fall economic statement, growth was already at 3.2%, according to the government. We also know that from April to November last year, there was an increase from the previous year of almost $15 billion in expenditures or deficit. Is that being considered as well? If those pressures were not as high as they are, would it help lower the ceiling you're talking about when you're looking at those pressures that are pushing up inflation?

11:40 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

Yes, anything that has been announced by the government and that has been through the House will be built into our projections.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

However, the actual expenditures are increasing. Would you have to re-forecast?

11:40 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

When we get the national accounts data, we do update our forecast. Therefore, when we get Q4 data, we will be updating our forecast.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

Specifically in the report, it's clear that shelter inflation or shelter costs are keeping the CPI high. That has the most growth inside of inflation. What specifically is driving that?

11:40 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

Do you want to say a few words about that?

11:40 a.m.

Carolyn Rogers Senior Deputy Governor, Bank of Canada

Sure.

There are a number of things inside of shelter inflation. Obviously, mortgage insurance cost is part of what's keeping overall shelter inflation up. Normally, as you would have seen in past tightening cycles, as interest rates go up, there is a decline in house prices. However, because we have a chronic structural shortage of housing in Canada, we haven't seen that sort of offset or adjustment. Therefore, housing prices are still part of the overall higher shelter contribution to inflation.

Rents have also risen quite a bit recently, and that's—

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

Is that because of the demand?

11:40 a.m.

Senior Deputy Governor, Bank of Canada

Carolyn Rogers

Sure. Prices go up when there's more demand than supply, and right now there is more demand than supply for rental housing in Canada—

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

I'm sorry to cut you off, but I believe I have only a few seconds left.

I want to move on to another topic. In your press release, you talked about how there is high inflation. It's been high for more than two years now. We know that the economy is stagnant. It's going to stay that way for almost a year, even according to the government's own projections. We also see unemployment ticking up. Is that a stagflation risk? Is that something you're worried about?

11:40 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

I wouldn't call it stagflation.

Growth is weak. In fact, we actually need this period of weak growth to let supply catch up—

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

I'm sorry. Let me clarify that. If that trend continues—if unemployment continues to rise and everything else remains the same—is there a fear of some form of stagflation? That is literally the definition of stagflation.

11:40 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Tiff Macklem

Stagflation is a period of high inflation—

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

—which we have—