Finance Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Okay, and MP Morrice will have an opportunity.

We are going to MP Blaikie now.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

With apologies to the witnesses, I want to put a motion on notice with the committee. I'm just going to read that out before posing my next questions.

The motion I'm putting on notice is as follows, Mr. Chair:

Given that the Canadian grocery sector made more than $6 billion in profit in 2023 and that millions of Canadians have reported food insecurity in the last year, the Standing Committee on Finance call on the government to immediately take action by implementing an excess profit tax on large grocery companies that would put money back in the people's pocket with a GST rebate and establish a National School Food Program, and that this motion be reported to the House.

Thank you for your patience, witnesses, while I do that bit of business.

We've heard definitely of the importance of—

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

I'm sorry, Mr. Blaikie. The interpreters are indicating that they have not received a copy of the motion. That's why they didn't interpret it. It is always helpful to give them the motion in advance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Blaikie, please distribute that. If we can also get a soft copy, an electronic copy, to our clerk, he'll get that distributed.

Thank you, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

Go ahead, MP Blaikie.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I can repeat it in French.

The motion reads as follows:

Étant donné que le secteur canadien de l'épicerie a réalisé plus de 6 milliards de dollars de bénéfices en 2023 et que des millions de Canadiens ont fait état d'insécurité alimentaire au cours de l'année écoulée, le Comité permanent des finances demande au gouvernement d'agir immédiatement en mettant en œuvre une taxe sur les bénéfices excédentaires des grandes entreprises d'épicerie qui remettrait de l'argent dans les poches des citoyens...

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We're going just suspend for a second.

We were getting interpretation in the other language, so I'm going to ask you to go through it one more time

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

That's no problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Start from the top.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Are we good to go?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Yes, you're good to go.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay.

The French version of the motion reads as follows:

Étant donné que le secteur canadien de l'épicerie a réalisé plus de 6 milliards de dollars de bénéfices en 2023 et que des millions de Canadiens ont fait état d'insécurité alimentaire au cours de l'année écoulée, le Comité permanent des finances demande au gouvernement d'agir immédiatement en mettant en œuvre une taxe sur les bénéfices excédentaires des grandes entreprises d'épicerie qui remettrait de l'argent dans les poches des citoyens sous la forme d'un remboursement de la TPS et d'établir un programme national d'alimentation en milieu scolaire, et que cette motion fasse l'objet d'un rapport à la Chambre.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

With the time I have remaining, I just wanted to ask our witnesses a question.

We've heard, for sure, about the importance of lowering the criminal rate of interest. I'm wondering if there are some other measures that you haven't had an opportunity to share that would either protect Canadians from predatory loans or increase the non-predatory credit options that would be available to them.

[Dr. Bhumika Jhamb]

Thank you.

We've been pushing for a fair credit benefit. That's something that the federal government could do. That could be administered by the banks or by a non-profit agency.

As Ms. Mulholland stated in her remarks, Good Shepherd in Australia has provided a good alternative in that country. It was supported by the federal government and administered by a non-profit agency. Alternatives such as these could provide fair credit to people who need it most.

We are seeing more credit unions offering credit products. We saw DUCA credit union start a DUCA escalator loan recently. There are these products that are becoming more and more available, offering a payday loan alternative. We want to see more of such alternatives. As I said, the Canada Post and TD loan product was a decent product. Unfortunately, it was discontinued.

We've also been pushing postal banking as an alternative because we believe that's something that could offer people a fair credit alternative. There are such alternatives that can be made available, rather than giving fringe lenders a free market to exploit vulnerable people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I also want to advise that I'll give my next round to Mr. Morrice as well, so that he gets a proper block of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

All right. MP Morrice, you're going to have a lot of time in the next round.

We have MP Lawrence now, for five minutes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I am tempted to give my time to Mr. Morrice as well. I'll refrain from that, even though I do quite enjoy Mr. Morrice. I'm sure his questions will be excellent.

I want to have a serious discussion with our friends today. They are great witnesses. It would be great if we had some more, as per Mr. Baker's comments.

When we look at these issues, I get in mind where we would like to be—I don't think anyone here would disagree—which is in a situation where no one needed to get a payday loan or comparables.

I look at the fact that we have record food bank usage, and we have had high inflation. The Governor of the Bank of Canada came before this very committee and said that the carbon tax alone was represented in 20% of inflation, including 20% of food inflation. If we saw a dramatic decrease in inflation, one would only think that it would be logical that the reliance on high-interest loans would be dramatically decreased. Do you think that has any solvency? I know that hasn't been...certainly in the responses I've been hearing.

I have to think that the underlying poverty issue.... You can't legislate prosperity. That is 100% clear. What we really need is for the economy to start rolling. We need higher levels of productivity so that more people are helped by not needing the help of government.

The floor is yours, my friends.

[Dr. Bhumika Jhamb]

Thank you.

I don't think I understood the question correctly.

ACORN's belief is that, at least when it comes to basic services, especially housing and income security, the government has a primary role to play. We've seen what's happened to housing when we leave it to the market to enforce standards. We've seen how the rental prices have gone up, given the lack of adequate rent protections and rent control.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I 100% believe your heart is in the right place.

The reality is that over the last eight years we've seen more government intervention. The results are clear at this point. They are clear. There are more people who are unhomed. There are more people who are in difficult, vulnerable situations. There are much higher levels of poverty and food bank usage. This is clear. This is from your own organizations. Eight years of more government intervention has led to dramatic increases in poverty.

[Dr. Bhumika Jhamb]

We do know, at least in this space, that more government intervention is the right answer.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

How do we know that?

[Dr. Bhumika Jhamb]

The predatory lending industry is not going to solve this problem. It's only going to push people into more poverty.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Okay, let's just say.... It's not the ideal solution. The ideal solution is for everyone who is able to be given an opportunity to start a successful business and to have a great job. Is that not where we want to be?

[Dr. Bhumika Jhamb]

Yes, but that can only happen when people have basic needs met.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Exactly. The vast majority of Canadians who have achieved those goals have done that through the private sector. Do you not believe that the private sector has a role? Is it not the economy that can...? Granted, taking care of those individuals who have unfortunate circumstances, who take....

Don't we need to drive a healthier and stronger economy, an economy that has a rate of growth that is not in the negative but in the positive, and that doesn't make wealthier people wealthy but helps the most vulnerable and gives them that hand up and that first opportunity?

[Dr. Bhumika Jhamb]

Donna, do you want to say something?