Finance Committee on March 19th, 2024

[Gerard Peets]

This legislation is about creating a department. It's not about the programs the department runs.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

How many billions of dollars have they committed to supposedly build homes faster?

[Gerard Peets]

The national housing strategy would be....

I'm sorry. I'm prepared to speak to the legislation. I don't have the familiarity with CMHC's existing programs. It is a Crown corporation.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Ms. Boldt, I think you were looking for a number.

How many billions were committed?

[Lindsay Boldt, Senior Director, Strategic Policy, Office of Infrastructure of Canada]

I don't have access to that number right now, but we can make sure to follow up on that.

Thank you for the question.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

The reason I ask is that the finance minister said that with Bill C-59 or the FES, they were putting billions into building new homes. That's what the point of this was, according to her.

She also said that they will “unlock billions of dollars” to unlock more homes and get more homes built faster.

Are you saying that this legislation doesn't do any of that?

[Gerard Peets]

I think the finance minister is talking about the various programs and initiatives the government has put in place to build more homes, including incentives for creating new purpose-built rentals and tax incentives to make the math work better for builders.

This legislation is about reassigning mandates within existing federal departments. It has no financial implications. It doesn't cost anything. It moves responsibilities from one department to another.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

But again, [Inaudible—Editor]—

[Gerard Peets]

It provides the department that can then move forward with policies in the future.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

This specifically doesn't build any homes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Hallan, that question has been asked a number of times. The officials are here to answer. They have answered the question a number of times, so that's the answer.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

I've never been interrupted by the chair before like that, but I'll move on.

I know we have more than 35 officials here. Have any officials done any analysis on Bill C-59 to see if the measures would lower grocery prices and what the exact number is?

Is there anybody?

I can see officials getting up and leaving.

I just need a number on how much this legislation would lower the grocery prices.

[Mark Schaan]

Like my colleague said, the changes to the Competition Act empower our commissioner of competition and allow for a more robust competitive environment within the Canadian marketplace. It's not specific to any one sector, but we do believe that it will have positive impacts on competition, including prices, but there's not a specific number I'm able to provide as to what—

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

There's no proof that it will lower prices.

[Mark Schaan]

Mr. Chair, I believe you'll see that there's quite a bit of evidence that competition and offering choices to consumers aids in lowering prices for Canadians and that this bill significantly improves our overall competition framework, which we believe will have a positive impact for consumers and Canadians in all sectors, including those in the grocery sector.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to move a motion right now.

That, given that, a) The carbon tax increases the cost of food; b) Canadians are already set to spend an additional $700 on groceries this year; c) Increased food costs are driving Canadians to food banks in record numbers; d) There are now 8,000 members of the Dumpster Diving Network of Toronto Facebook group; e) Increasing the carbon tax on April 1, 2024, will only make food prices even more expensive; in order to help Canadians afford groceries and reduce reliance on food banks, the committee call on the Liberal Government to cancel the 23% carbon tax increase on April 1, 2024, and report this recommendation to the House.

I believe this was put on notice on Friday.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Yes, it was put on notice on Friday. It is after the 48 hours, so it's admissible.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Mr. Chair, I'll continue.

As we all know, this carbon tax scam puts less back into Canadians' pockets than what they pay into the tax, which was proven by the PBO, the budget watchdog. It was again confirmed yesterday in committee that the indirect costs put less in Canadians' pockets. It also has done nothing to reduce emissions, and that was proven by the government's own environment department that said that they don't even track the emissions, so they don't even know if this is effective at all.

We know that Canadians are visiting food banks in record numbers, two million a month, to be exact. Second Harvest says that this year, there are going to be a million more on top of that who will visit a food bank in a single month. A third of those are children. There's a new phenomenon in Canada where double income-earning families are going to food banks more than ever before.

We have also heard that people have asked for medical assistance in dying just because they're hungry. There are 8,000 people in a Facebook group talking about dumpster diving because of the cost of food, the cost of gas and the cost of groceries and home heating. Seniors are have to turn down their heat and use blankets because they can't afford to eat and heat their homes or keep a roof over their heads.

After eight years of this government, they want to hike that tax by 23% on April 1.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

Is this a presentation of a motion or an oratorical speech?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Dzerowicz, the member has the floor. MP Hallan is speaking to his motion.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Thank you for the ruling, Mr. Chair.

It is 23% that they're going to hike that tax by. It's an April Fool's Day joke, but it's on Canadians. Canadians will have to pay this cost, because this government doesn't understand that the farmer gets taxed, the trucker gets taxed and the retailer gets taxed, and that tax gets passed down to the buyer ultimately, and right now Canadians are suffering.

This government raised payroll taxes, which means that they take more money from Canadians. It's because of this government and its spending.

Rents and mortgages have doubled. More of people's monthly incomes goes towards shelter, which leaves them with less and less food. That is why Canadians are the most indebted households in the G7. That is why delinquencies are going up for mortgages and credit cards. That is why Canada is the most at risk in the G7 for a mortgage default crisis, and yet this Liberal-NDP government thinks it's a great idea to hike that tax by 23% to take even more. It's all economic pain and no environmental gain for anybody.

This government still wants to continue on its path to quadruple the carbon tax when it promised that the tax would not go as high as they're taking it. They said in the last election that they wouldn't make it go higher. After they got Canadians' votes, now they're going after Canadians' pocketbooks even further. This is the record after eight years of this Liberal-NDP government.

Once again, we call on this government to spike the hike, axe the tax, scrap the carbon tax scam and leave the money in the pockets of hard-working, struggling Canadians after eight years of this government.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Hallan.

I do have a list here. I have MP Blaikie and then MP Chambers.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm pleased just to take a moment to address the motion. Obviously, there's been a lot of talk about the carbon tax on Parliament Hill for some time now. I think it's important to note that I do think there are some falsehoods in the narrative around the carbon tax and inflation.

It is a difficult time for Canadians. That's why New Democrats have been focused on trying to make life more affordable for Canadians. We've tried to expand access to dental care in Canada, for instance. We have worked to press this government to reduce child care costs. We recently announced an agreement to reduce the costs of prescription drugs.

We've also proposed direct tax relief. In fact, we twice got the government to double the GST rebate. Why was that important, as opposed to a general tax measure? If you look at the carbon tax, the people who pay the most carbon tax are the highest earners in Canada. Reducing the carbon tax means giving a tax break to the people who have the most disposable income. To the extent that you give more disposable income to people at the top of the income scale, what you're doing is putting more money in the economy.

Now, that last time I listened to a Conservative, they said that was a terrible idea, because that was driving inflation. That's why there should be targeted tax relief for the people who need the help the most, which was the GST rebate. That's something the government should continue to do. We've advocated for doubling the GST rebate again. That kind of targeted tax relief puts money in the pockets of Canadians who need it, without putting more money in the pockets of the Canadians who are at the top of the income scale, who presumably will spend that money on other things and help contribute to a higher rate of inflation.

We've also proposed to take the GST off home heating. It's something that we've proposed as an amendment to Conservative motions about the carbon tax, but which they've refused. Why do we think that's a good idea? That kind of tax relief would help Canadians who are struggling to heat their homes, but it would also include Canadians who are heating their homes with emissions-free electricity, like most people in Manitoba, for instance, who use electric heat. They don't have emissions with that electric heat. Taking the GST off home heating is a way of not just reducing the tax on home heating that burns carbon, but also of reducing the tax on all kinds of home heating.

Furthermore, it would apply right across the country. It was a Liberal cum Conservative government that introduced a carbon tax in B.C. It was the first in the country. They're not going to get any relief if the federal backstop doesn't go up. It doesn't apply in B.C. That's true for folks in Quebec as well. The GST does apply right across the country, but we don't hear them talking about that. We just hear them talking about the carbon tax.

There are ways that New Democrats have proposed meaningful tax relief in a way that would be less inflationary than what the Conservatives are proposing. The ways we've proposed tax relief would actually help more Canadians than what the Conservatives are proposing.

We've heard many times around this table that the problem with inflation is certainly not just the carbon tax. In fact, it's a relatively small amount of the inflation that's going on. We've heard about supply chains. We've heard about other important contributors to inflation, including from a number of studies. We've heard from some of the very economists who authored those studies. The Conservatives had an opportunity to cross-examine them. They said that over 25% of inflation in Canada has been caused by price increases that go above and beyond the increase in input costs that companies have experienced. They're not talking about corporate greed.

I'm not prepared to support a motion that is about distracting from the fact that big corporations in Canada are fleecing Canadians and not doing anything about it. I'm not interested in promoting tax relief that is less targeted to the people who need it, and is more likely to increase inflation, and that doesn't apply to the kinds of home heating that aren't part of the problem when it comes to Canada's getting its emissions under control. That's why I think this motion is a farce and I'm not prepared to support it. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

I do have MP Chambers and then MP Dzerowicz.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I want to quickly get on the record that it's one of the last times I'll follow an impassioned speech by my colleague Mr. Blaikie.

I have other questions for these witnesses. I hope we can get to a vote relatively quickly.

I would say, perhaps for a future NDP member on the committee, I'd be open to a study on corporate greed. I think there's some good literature on the subject. We would very much welcome the opportunity to explore that area with the committee.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.