Finance Committee on March 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

Now we'll go to MP Blaikie.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Welcome back to committee, Minister.

First of all, I'd like to echo the sense of urgency that Mr. Ste-Marie was giving to the need for comprehensive employment insurance reform. There are a lot of things that need to change and have been promised to change for some time.

One small cost item that I think has a high impact is the double-stacking of maternity and regular benefits, which the social services tribunal at one point did recognize as an instance of gender discrimination in the employment insurance system that has a disproportionately negative effect on women.

In Bill C-59, there is a small proposal for an employment insurance change. That is the measures related to the placement or arrival of children. I think, overall, those are good measures.

I'm aware that there are folks who are concerned that indigenous people were not consulted. There are unique needs within indigenous communities around the placement of their children. There's a lot of very legitimate, historical concern about governments making decisions about the placement of children and how that gets arranged without indigenous people themselves being in the driver's seat.

I'm wondering if the government is prepared to consult on these measures, even as it implements them, in case other changes should come in the future. That's to ensure that this new benefit under employment insurance is properly tailored to the needs of indigenous communities as they take more control—and ultimately all control, I hope—over their own children and where they end up when their parents aren't able to serve them in the ways that we would all hope.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Well, first of all, I hope you will not mind if I take a moment to say, Mr. Blaikie, since I think today is your last day, how much I have not only enjoyed but also benefited from working with you in your work on this committee and your work in Parliament. We have not always agreed on everything. However, I was thinking today about this meeting of the committee, and I was thinking that the thing I really admire about your work is that I always know you are led by your values. When you make a point, when you push for something, it's because you really believe in it and think it's good for your constituents and the people of Canada.

I also appreciate that when we don't have exactly the same opinion, you're always prepared to listen carefully and with an open mind to another point of view. Sometimes you're persuaded, but even when you're not, you're a person who's prepared to think hard, roll up your sleeves and work hard to try to find some outcomes that can be win-win. To me, that is the definition of a good legislator and a good public servant.

I'm really sad that you're leaving this role in Ottawa, but I had a chance to meet your beautiful family, and I think they will be very happy to see more of you. I hope that in your new job, we'll have a chance to continue to work together.

I think Premier Kinew is off to an outstanding start, as is my colleague, Minister Sala. I look forward to us continuing to work together.

Thank you for highlighting that EI measure. I think it's a good one. It's going to be important for the people it helps.

With regard to your point about indigenous people, I think we all recognize that we have, collectively, a lot of work to do to be sure that the programs, laws and institutions of Canada support indigenous people in the specific ways they need. We're trying hard. I think we are making progress and getting better, but I would never claim that all of the work that needs to be done has been done.

I hear you. It's something we do think about, but I'll think about it some more having heard your question.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

I don't know how we're doing for time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have over a minute.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay.

This is along similar lines.

You talked in your opening remarks about some of the new investment tax credits. Obviously, New Democrats thought it was a priority to ensure that there were prevailing wage conditions and apprenticeship conditions attached to those investment tax credits so that the money the government will be investing in new, greener technologies won't leave good-paying union jobs behind.

Upcoming, as I understand it, is another investment tax credit, which is the clean electricity investment tax credit. That's at a rate of 15% for non-taxable entities. Some of those non-taxable entities include indigenous-owned entities, and we've been hearing feedback that the differential is disincentivizing partnership with indigenous communities on renewable energy projects.

I wonder whether you're aware of that concern and whether your government is looking at the possibility of ensuring that, for indigenous-owned non-taxable entities, the rebate amount is the 30% that private companies are enjoying as opposed to the 15% that was talked about in a previous budget—the 2023 budget, I think.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Thank you for highlighting the labour requirements of the investment tax credits. It's a first in Canadian history. Thank you for your personal support of having them there. I think it's a good opportunity for both of us to thank Canada's union leaders, who did so much work with all of us to have those requirements there.

When you started talking about the clean electricity tax credit, I thought you were already wearing your new hat from the province of Manitoba and were going to talk about Manitoba Hydro, because there are some good conversations we can have there.

As you know, making non-taxable entities eligible for tax credits is a huge new thing we have done with this suite of tax credits, and we've done it recognizing the huge need Canada has to build capacity and produce more clean electricity. That was a very big step, and I think it's important for everyone to recognize how significant that is.

Like you, I am a big believer that a key part of reconciliation is indigenous economic participation and indigenous prosperity. I think the issue you raise is worth continuing to work on and think about, while bearing in mind that non-taxable entities have a particular and different relationship to tax credits than taxable entities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

Members, I want to get through a second round, so we'll watch the minutes. We've been letting things go a bit longer.

We're starting with MP Morantz.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, how much has the government collected from the carbon tax since you implemented it?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Thanks for the question. It gives me an opportunity to be really clear about the price on pollution. It is revenue-neutral. All the money that is collected goes directly back to Canadians. That is the key point.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I'm sorry, Minister, but it was a pretty specific question. I just asked for the number.

I have limited time, Minister. How much has your government collected from the carbon tax?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

This is also an opportunity for me to point out that Manitoba families will be getting $1,200 this year.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Again, Minister, could I just have the number? How much have you collected from the carbon tax?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

The key point, which Conservatives are consistently trying to keep from Canadians, is that the price on pollution is completely revenue-neutral.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Minister, it's a very straightforward question that Canadians want an answer to.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

The money does not go into general revenues; it is returned to Canadians.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I'm sorry, but I have limited time, Minister. What is the dollar value of all carbon tax collected since the tax was implemented?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

The key point is it is money in the pockets of Canadians. For Manitoba families this year, it's going to be $1,200. That is making a real difference.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Can I just have the number, Minister? How much has the government actually collected from the carbon tax?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

As I said, the key point is it's all money that goes back to Canadians. It goes back to your constituents, my constituents, Daniel's constituents and Mr. Hallan's constituents.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

With the greatest respect, it's not revenue-neutral. In fact, the estimates—

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

It is revenue-neutral.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

No, Minister. You refuse to answer with accurate information. The government's own financial documents, its main estimates, show that it has collected $20.7 billion in carbon taxes and has only paid out $18.6 billion since the carbon tax took effect.

Your government has collected over $2 billion out of the pockets of Canadians since the tax was implemented that it has not paid back. That's from the government's own main estimates, so will you correct the record and admit the truth?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

No, Mr. Morantz, it is 100% revenue-neutral, and I'm glad I—

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Are you saying the main estimates are wrong?