Finance Committee on April 18th, 2024

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Welcome to the witnesses.

Ms. Rush, I'd like to start with you. Thank you for the work you're doing. I do believe that oral care is health care.

Could you please explain to the committee the foundational care approach that's being taken by your organization and why this approach is important and necessary?

[Joan Rush]

The profession of dentistry, and oral health in general, has failed to establish that kind of foundational approach, so we have stepped up. My colleagues are, for the most part, trained in special needs. They are often pediatric dentists. Their struggle is that they watch their clients hit the period of early adolescence and early adulthood and they're no longer able to treat them in the systems.

Nowhere in our Canadian health care system do we provide for this, so we've tried to establish a project of creating the basic foundation on which you assume everyone is entitled to a quality level of health care. We as a country agreed—and certainly we hear Minister Holland repeating it—that oral health is health. The chief dental officer of Canada says so.

By failing to provide it to persons with disabilities, we literally are failing to provide something that the country and its senior ministers of the government acknowledge is health care. They are unable to get it because of this challenge.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

One-third of Canadians are unable to visit a dentist, and many have said that it's primarily due to the cost. Your volunteer organization advocates for equitable access across the oral health care provisions or system, particularly for people with disabilities.

Could you outline the impact that you foresee the Canadian dental care plan will have on persons with disabilities?

[Joan Rush]

I fear, somewhat, that many people won't get the benefit they need, as I said, unless we change systems to make it more accessible.

I want to say that there is no social determinant of health that is more closely related to poverty than disability. The same people who are struggling to access care are more likely to be the impoverished members of our society. Yes, the provinces provide some small amount of care. It's not sufficient in any province or territory in the country, but they provide a little.

What we see is people unable to access care, whether they're disabled or simply impoverished. There are sometimes other issues too. If they're living in rural and remote communities, our dental care system does not ensure that they can access care. Again, there's often an integration with some degree of poverty.

Consequently, you find that people truly need medically necessary care and realize they cannot afford to pay the bill. We've seen this for expensive care for people who are, let's say, lower-income people with dental plans. They have to pay a 50% copay for things like crowns to protect their teeth. They can't afford them, so they don't.

The copays just in general care are too high, so people stay away, but people with disabilities also can't get themselves into hospitals or general anaesthesia facilities. We have not integrated oral health with health. Consequently, they are literally left standing on sidewalks outside of hospitals or going into emergency rooms and costing us all money when we cannot help them. We have to change this paradigm and ensure that we create a system that will work.

Yes, there's the potential for the CDCP to make an enormous difference, but only if we provide that infrastructure and only if we provide trained dental care providers. There is not one mandatory hour of special needs training in our faculties of dentistry at the moment. It's luck if any of them teach any of their students special care. Apart from the pediatric dentists, who stop treating people when they become adolescents, there is not a single hour of special needs care, so we have to change the training.

We have to change our research. We need an institute for oral health research. There are many parts to this, but just the money won't be enough to change the paradigm for people with complex needs.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you. So—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That's about it, MP Thompson. I apologize.

Welcome to our committee, MP DeBellefeuille. You have the floor for six minutes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Baron, I imagine that you have stopped producing maple-based alcoholic beverages. The maple season is over. You're now building up your products for the next tourist season in Quebec.

I gather from your opening remarks that your members are mainly local artisanal producers whose products cater to a local or regional market. Basically, your products have an agri‑tourism appeal that encourages us to visit the farms, meet the farmers and have a drink at your place. This sounds like your business, right?

[Nicolas Baron]

That's exactly right.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

We aren't talking about an internationally competitive market.

[Nicolas Baron]

No. Absolutely not.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Since 2022, in Quebec or in any other part of Canada, producers of apple cider and honey‑based alcoholic beverages, known as meads, have been exempt from the excise tax.

[Nicolas Baron]

That's right.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

As we speak, do you think that there's an inequity between cider producers and producers of maple and berry‑based alcoholic beverages?

[Nicolas Baron]

Absolutely. We produce even less than cider producers, and we're a very small industry. In terms of international competition, we're a very small player on the world stage. We're at the bottom of the list of all these producers when it comes to volume and revenue. So, yes, we think that there's an inequity.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Your products are often sold at local farmers' and public markets. They aren't necessarily found on the shelves of grocery stores or large retail outlets. The products are really intended for local consumption. Is that right?

[Nicolas Baron]

Yes. That's right.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

What would you tell people who think that exempting maple wines from the excise tax amounts to giving you preferential treatment?

[Patrice Plouffe, Treasurer, Association of acers producers of Québec]

I think that our products are much closer to meads and ciders than to wine. We need to educate the general public a great deal. The expression “maple wine” is often used. However, our product doesn't contain grapes. It contains only maple and is produced in Quebec according to strict rules.

We're contributing to the diversity of products on the table. Restaurants, consumers and tourists all greatly appreciate maple wines. We add value to Canada's iconic maple product. That's what we do.

We wouldn't be getting preferential treatment. On the contrary, we would be correcting a situation that currently seems unfair.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

The Bloc Québécois has been working hard for the past two years to make the Minister of Finance understand that exempting products such as pear cider, currant wine, maple wine and all other non-grape-based alcoholic products from the excise tax isn't a huge step.

Could you tell us how this type of exemption would affect your company's products?

[Nicolas Baron]

As entrepreneurs, we're creative people. We're always thinking of new products to develop and offer our customers. Some products may take a bit longer to put on the market, because everything that we produce with maple is new. By the way, your colleague said earlier that he had never heard of the alcoholic product known as maple wine.

When we want to launch a new product on the market, it also takes some time to make people aware of the product. The excise tax must be paid even before we earn any revenue. This increases our costs and affects the company's cash flow, which also hampers development and the desire to create something new. It becomes a barrier.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Thank you.

I'm fortunate to represent a rural constituency with a number of cider and maple wine producers, including the Black Creek Farm cider house. I would be happy to share a small bottle with my colleagues around the table, and even with the Minister of Finance, who could learn more about it.

You received the support of cider or mead producers, whose artisanal products were exempted from the excise tax. This was a complete game-changer in their lives as business men and women. Can you tell us about your discussions with these producers?

[Nicolas Baron]

Yes. I can certainly tell you about them.

We submitted a letter of support signed by Quebec cider and mead producers, who fully support our efforts. They can see that we're in much the same situation as they were two years ago. They hope that we'll prevail in this matter.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

We know that a number of companies like yours produce maple wine, apple cider and pear cider at the same time, for example. For a producer such as Entre Pierre et Terre, in my constituency, apple cider is exempt, but pear cider isn't exempt. This creates heavy red tape for small artisanal businesses such as yours, whose products serve a more local recreational and tourism market. Is that right?

[Nicolas Baron]

Yes. That's absolutely right.

Two weeks ago, I hosted a group of French people who work at the Bocuse restaurant. All the members of this family are restaurant owners and involved in their community. They contacted us and came to our place on a Saturday morning to visit the farm, discover a maple beverage that they didn't know about and that isn't made in other places and taste our outstanding maple products straight from the vats.

I spoke earlier about developing new products. I have many friends and neighbours in my area who grow berries. We could incorporate the berries into our beverages to provide colour and a more natural acidity. I'm thinking about the combination of products that we could develop. My colleague, Mr. Plouffe, could tell you about it, because he's already doing it. This could open the door to others.

However, it's complicated. We wonder which products will be taxed and which won't. Speaking of red tape, a new committee could be set up today just to talk about that. If things could be simplified, all artisanal alcohol producers would be grateful.

Perhaps Mr. Plouffe would like to take over from me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. DeBellefeuille. Your time is up.

Welcome, MP Zarrillo, to our committee. It's great to have you here.