Finance Committee on May 7th, 2024

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Go ahead, Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I wonder if the member making broad, sweeping claims could back up some of the things he's saying with evidence and perhaps quote the polls that he's referring to.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Mr. Turnbull, that's not a point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Well, how does one respond to that? I presume that Mr. Turnbull is backing Ms. Freeland in the upcoming Liberal leadership. That's the only reasonable conclusion I can draw from that.

In all seriousness, money laundering is a completely important topic. It's one that's squarely within our rubric. I beseech the Liberal members to just vote for this. Send a signal to the world markets. Send a signal to those who would profit from human trafficking, from drug trafficking and from terrorism, so that we can at least take a bite out of some of those horrible things today. Let's get past partisan politics and pass this sensible motion.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Thank you, Mr. Lawrence.

Next on the speaking list I have Ms. Dzerowicz.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

It is my pleasure to be speaking to this motion.

Because we have spent so much time on things that are not relevant to the motion and subamendment at hand, I just want to remind everyone where we are.

Originally, my very fair and fine colleague Mr. Turnbull put forward a programming motion. It includes how we are going to spend our time this month and next month and how we are going to get through government legislation, the budget before us and other issues that are important and before this committee. That was put before us. The Conservatives seemed to be very upset, saying this was thrust upon them, so they were utterly surprised and bewildered. How could we have proposed such a programming motion without notifying them?

We reminded our colleagues—who at that moment had short-term memories—that in a subcommittee meeting, we discussed all of the ideas and all the things we wanted to discuss for May and June. We discussed how we could get through the budget, how we could get to important issues like money laundering, how we could get to green financing and how we could get to the housing study that is important to all members of our committee. Alas, the Conservatives decided they wanted to play a few games, so we unfortunately have a programming motion and some amendments that were put forward. One of the amendments, which we are debating today, asks that as part of our programming motion, we have Mr. Carney come and present.

What I would like to do is reiterate some points I made previously.

The Conservatives would like to have Mr. Carney present on budget 2024, and as everybody knows, everybody has witness lists. The NDP has witness lists, the Bloc has witness lists, the Liberals have witness lists and the Conservatives have witness lists. Everybody can put forward their names. If the Conservatives would like to have Mr. Carney present, or if they would like to have anybody present—they could ask any Canadian they'd like to present on any of the studies before the finance committee—they can. However, I would like to remind my colleagues, particularly my Conservative colleagues, that it is not the job of finance committee to interview possible future politicians.

Irrespective of whether Mr. Carney has opined on things like money laundering, affordability or housing, I would say that most business leaders and leaders from every different sector are very concerned about money laundering. Any of them, equally, should have the chance to present before the finance committee. I don't think it's only Mr. Carney. I would say most business leaders in our country have opined on money laundering.

I would plead with the Conservatives to stop using the finance committee for their fishing expeditions, and to use the important role that has been thrust upon us by Canadians to continue to look at critical legislation coming before our committee. We have important work to do. We are in the final six weeks of this part of our Parliament before we rise for the summer. It's really important for us to be looking at federal budget 2024, among many other things. That is an urgent request, because almost every day in the House, the Conservatives talk about—

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I question the relevance. That was such an important topic to government members with respect to Mr. Lawrence's intervention, so I'd make the same request of you with the current intervention.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I would say it's completely relevant, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Thank you, Mr. Chambers.

Ms. Dzerowicz, just wait to be recognized, please.

As I told Mr. Lawrence, I understand there's a bit of a preamble, but please get to the point.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

It's not a preamble at all, Mr. Chair. Everything I'm saying is completely relevant to exactly what we're talking about. There's not one thing outside of that. There's not a little tippy-toe outside of it. I'm also not using any of this for any social media video.

You can intervene at any point, Mr. Chambers, or anyone else who wants to say “point of order”, but I can assure you that everything I'm saying is completely relevant and exactly to the motion at hand.

Let's move forward. We are talking about the programming motion before us and the subamendment that has been made to it. It is absolutely relevant.

I was talking about how there are a lot of really important initiatives that are important for us to pass and consider as part of the 2024 federal budget. The Conservatives, and I would say all members of the House, have been rightly concerned about housing, affordability and a number of the measures that our 2024 federal budget has been addressing. It is urgent that we turn the attention, focus and energy of our very important committee to looking at federal budget 2024 so that we can make sure that Canadians are able to access some of the new programs, funding and supports that our government is proposing in it.

What else would I like to say?

I'll mention one point, and if you'd like to call a point of order on it, Conservatives, that would be funny for me. You may not know this, but in federal budget 2024, we have proposed a number of items to combat money laundering and terrorist financing. I worked with my team to look at all of the federal budgets we have introduced since 2016, and almost every year, we have introduced anti-money laundering legislation.

If you truly care about anti-money laundering legislation—which we all care about—then we want to get to federal budget 2024, because there are a number of outstanding measures in the budget that are going to continue the excellent work—

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Mr. Chambers, go ahead on a point of order.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Oh, that's wonderful.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I'm having a really hard time. I'm struggling to understand how a question of relevance can be raised by a government member when an opposition member talks about money laundering, but when a government member talks about money laundering, it's supposed to be relevant. I'm confused about how we're applying the rule of relevance or how we're thinking about relevance.

I appreciate Ms. Dzerowicz's intervention. However, it seems a bit hypocritical to, on the one hand, question the ability of Mr. Lawrence to talk about that issue, but then freely decide to cite it themselves.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Thank you, Mr. Chambers.

I agree that we should stay on topic. I did find that when Mr. Lawrence tied in the money laundering with Mark Carney directly, that kept it relevant.

Ms. Dzerowicz, I would ask the same of you. Keep it relevant. Of course, there is latitude, as every chair in this place has given, but tie it in to the subamendment.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I am very happy to address that issue directly, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank the honourable member for his intervention.

I was talking about the programming motion and then the amendment to the programming motion, which includes Mr. Carney. Mr. Carney is in the amendment to the programming motion, which is on how we're going to spend our time both this month and next month before we rise for the summer. One of the key items that we talk about in that programming motion—which is still directly tied to the amendment that we're talking about right now—is federal budget 2024. I was merely pointing out—very much in order, I would say, Mr. Chair—that there are a number of outstanding measures in federal budget 2024 that address money laundering and terrorist financing.

It's completely different from what Mr. Lawrence did earlier. Not only am I tying it back to the amendment to the original motion that we put in place, but I'm also talking about the key elements that were included in the original motion put before this committee, which was a programming motion.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Ms. Dzerowicz, I'm sorry. I was just talking to the clerk. We are just talking about the subamendment, not the amendment or the original motion.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Would you like to read out the subamendment, Mr. Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

The subamendment reads as follows: “the week of the 28th one meeting be dedicated to hearing from the Minister for two hours and one meeting be dedicated to hear from Mark Carney for three hours and that clause by clause not begin until the aforementioned witnesses appear for the requested times”. That is the subamendment.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Okay. Well, I think I already addressed the subamendment, and I was going back to the programming motion.

There's really not much to say other than to repeat again—perhaps we should repeat it several times—that if the Conservatives would like to have Mr. Carney or anybody as a witness, I would suggest they put Mr. Carney or anyone else on their list once we get to studying federal budget 2024. I also indicated, and I'm happy to indicate it again, that it's not the job of the finance committee to interview any possible future politicians or anybody the Conservatives are fearful might run for the Liberal leadership any time in the future.

I would urge our Conservative colleagues to stop playing games. We have important work before us. I say that genuinely. We started—we had a beautiful beginning—by looking at the budget implementation act. There are so many really important elements within federal budget 2024. They deserve questioning. They deserve our time and attention.

I ask our colleagues to get past the games. Let's get back to the original programming motion, come up with a way to move forward and get back to the business at hand for Canadians.

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Thank you, Ms. Dzerowicz.

Next on the speaking list is Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was a lawyer for a lot of years. I think a number of people on this committee were as well. I always noticed that when a lawyer said, “with the greatest of respect”, what was about to follow was generally anything but respectful. Similarly, in politics, when someone says, “we're not being partisan”, pretty much what follows after that, in my experience, has been extraordinarily partisan.

I would really like this finance committee to focus on the work that I think Canadians expect us to focus on. I want to thank Mr. Chambers for bringing forth his motion. Listening to everybody here, I know that all of us care deeply about money laundering and terrorist financing, and there's an appropriate place to get to that.

I will address my comments briefly, if I can, Mr. Chair, to the subamendment. I note, by the way, that the subamendment doesn't speak—

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Go ahead, Mr. Morantz.