Finance Committee on May 7th, 2024

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

It's my understanding that a motion is confidential until it's moved in committee. That's why you can't read it in right now. It's either moved or it's not. It's confidential until it's moved.

Mr. Morantz can't simultaneously decline to move and respect the fact that the motion is confidential. This is a public meeting.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Just to clarify that point, Mr. Davies, as far as I know, the motion was put on notice publicly by Mr. Chambers. Am I correct in that?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

You can put it on notice. The motion is confidential. It's not to be spoken about in public until it's moved in committee. I'd like the clerk to advise on that.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I can clarify, Mr. Chair, if I'm able to.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Mr. Chambers, go ahead on that point of order.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much.

Just for a point of clarity or a point of information, Mr. Davies is in fact correct. You cannot do that. However, the sequence of events was the following: The motion was put on notice. It was distributed to committee members. In fact, I did read that motion into the record during that meeting, so it is already a matter of public record.

I believe that Mr. Morantz is refreshing people's memories. I believe that's what he's doing, perhaps for the benefit of Mr. Turnbull, who I don't believe was present at the meeting when it was read into the record. He may not have seen it before.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Thank you, Mr. Chambers.

Yes, that's what I was talking about: that it was read into the record once before, so it is not a private motion at all. It has been read into the public record once before, and as far as I've seen, Mr. Morantz is just reiterating the same motion once again into the record.

Mr. Morantz, I'll give you the floor again.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Chair, can we hear from the clerk on that?

I think it would be helpful for all of us as committee members, because I don't know what the meaning of a motion being confidential before it is moved is if you can talk about it repeatedly in a public meeting. I understand reading it into the record, and it's been read into the record, but I don't think that gives licence to abrogate the rule that a motion is confidential until it is moved.

Could I hear from the clerk on that? What is the clerk's advice to the committee on this?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

I can turn it over to the clerk to reiterate that, but once again, I will say it's not a confidential motion because it's been moved and read publicly into the record once.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

With respect, Mr. Chair, you're the vice-chair. I want to hear from the clerk on this. I want to get the advice of the clerk.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

I will....

Mr. Davies, I'll just ask you to please wait to be recognized before you speak.

I will turn it over to the clerk now so that he can explain it.

[The Clerk]

Motions are indeed confidential when they are sent to me and before they are proposed at committee by the member, and I will not distribute them to the media or the public domain. I will distribute them only to the members of the committee.

However, it has happened on every side that members give notice of a motion by verbally stating it and reading it out loud during committee proceedings. Mr. Chambers did it for this motion, and it's happened many times in the past and in other committees as well.

As soon as a motion is read into testimony, it becomes public, and I am then free to send it out to the media and the public, to whoever wants to have it. It's also in the minutes of proceedings at that time.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Thank you for reiterating that, Clerk, and for all the hard work.

Mr. Morantz, I'll turn the floor back over to you.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I'll continue from where I left off.

It reads, “...the Minister of Public Safety for no fewer than two hours; the Minister of National Revenue for no fewer than two hours; department officials for the departments of justice and of public safety; the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the Canadian border security agency, the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada, the Ombudsman for Banking Services and Investments, the Cullen commission lead counsel, Royal Bank of Canada, TD Bank, Bank of Montreal, Scotiabank, CIBC, National Bank, the Ontario Securities Commission and other witnesses as submitted by the members of the committee; that the committee take no fewer than 10 meetings for this study, and that it report its findings to the House.”

I'm just reading this into the record. I'm not moving it. It's already on notice. It's been read into the record before, but it is relevant to the fact that the subamendment calls for the Minister of Finance to appear, and she has specifically made a request of this committee, which the committee has ignored. The motion, if it were moved and passed, would address that.

Having said all that, Mr. Chair, I'd like to move that this committee consider the Standing Order 106(4) request at this point in time.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Mr. Morantz, are you asking to adjourn the current debate and move on to the Standing Order 106(4) request? Is that what you're saying?

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Yes. I'd like to move on to the Standing Order 106(4) meeting and adjourn the current debate.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Okay. It's dilatory.

Colleagues, because the motion that was put forward has a condition on it to move to the Standing Order 106(4) meeting, it is a debatable motion and is up for debate.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, my understanding is that you can't move a motion that's not dilatory if we're already on a subamendment debate.

Therefore, Mr. Morantz cannot move a non-dilatory motion while he has the floor. That would circumvent debate on the very subamendment we've been debating for the entire meeting.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Mr. Turnbull, what Mr. Morantz is moving is a dilatory motion. It has a condition to move to the meeting requested under Standing Order 106(4) as well. Given that it also has a condition on it and is not just the dilatory motion to adjourn, it is debatable, according to the clerk.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

My understanding of the definition of a dilatory motion is that it has to move directly to a vote without debate, so how can it be a dilatory motion if it then has a condition on it that would require debate? That doesn't make sense. That's not consistent with every procedural rule that I've learned in the past five years since coming to the House of Commons.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Mr. Turnbull, of course a dilatory motion is to end the debate, but since this one has a condition on it, which was verified by the clerk, it is debatable. That's where we're at right now. That's the decision we've made after talking to the clerk, so I do see—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I'd like to challenge the chair on that.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jasraj Singh Hallan]

Okay. We'll go to a vote on that.

I'd like to have the clerk explain it before we go to the vote so that it's clear that this is direction from the clerk as well.

Would the committee be open to hearing the official ruling from the clerk on this, just so that it's clear that this is following full procedure? Can we get everyone's consent to that?

Go ahead, Mr. Turnbull.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Chair, first of all, it's not a ruling from the clerk.