Finance Committee on May 30th, 2024

[Babak Mahmoudi Ayough, Advisor, Housing Policy and Research, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation]

Thank you for the question. I'm Babak Mahmoudi. I'm an adviser with the policy sector of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

We regularly monitor the housing market and the broad impacts of the different policies. On this measure, we still do not have sufficient data. We need some time for the impacts to settle in the market. However, we can look at similar policies. For example, on the foreign buyers tax, we have some data from B.C. and Ontario. We have some estimates, and the existing research shows some impacts on the market. This is part of the medium-term package from the government that impacts the demand side of housing, which we think is an important force in the housing market.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

How many fines have been issued, to date, under the prohibition on the purchase of residential property, and in what amount?

[Babak Mahmoudi Ayough]

We don't have that data. We don't have access to case data from local authorities, local legal authorities.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Can you provide that information to the committee?

[Babak Mahmoudi Ayough]

We can do that.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Moving to the Canada student loan forgiveness program, the budget proposes to add nine additional health and social professions, as well as early childhood educators, to that program.

I'm just wondering. We've been contacted by the occupational therapists of Canada, who are missing from that list. Is there any reason for this omission? Would you see any policy reason why we shouldn't amend the budget to include occupational therapists?

[Jonathan Wallace, Director General, Canada Student Financial Assistance Program, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Hi. I'm Jonathan Wallace, director general of the Canada student financial assistance program. Thanks for the question.

In determining the list of additional professions to include in this benefit, a lot of factors were taken into consideration. Labour shortage data across the country using the COPS occupational projection system was considered, as well as specific data on shortages in rural tracks. We did a series of stakeholder consultations as well, and we heard from a lot of folks in the health and social services field about where the shortages were from their perspective.

In addition, there was also consideration of government priorities. Current government priorities regarding dental care and early learning and child care, for example—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm sorry. I have limited time.

I'm just wondering: Did you specifically address your mind to occupational therapists and deliberately exclude them?

[Jonathan Wallace]

The last point is that there's also a sort of fiscal impact. At a certain point, the number of occupations did have to be limited, so that was the other factor.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

On the school nutrition program, the government has announced that it expects this program to affect some 400,000 children. My research indicates there are some 2.2 million children in Canada attending grades 1 to 6, and there are about 2.8 million children if you go from grades 1 to 8.

Groups have told us that a key concept that is important in this program is that there be universal access. We don't want to create a program where poor kids go to the lunchroom and other kids don't, as stigmatization is apparently a big problem. I'm just wondering: Will the program roll out on a universal basis, albeit perhaps on a partial basis, or will the funds not be conditioned on universality?

[Hugues Vaillancourt, Director General, Social Policy Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Thank you for the question. I'm Hugues Vaillancourt from Employment and Social Development Canada.

You are correct. The budget does talk about the 400,000 additional kids who could benefit from the budget investment. In terms of what you raise around universality, we've certainly heard the same thing from stakeholders around the importance of being “free of access” and being barrier-free and limiting stigma at points of access.

What we know and what we see is there are different ways around how provinces already try to provide access that is stigma-free. Universal access is the gold standard, but there are certainly other approaches that are being used in different school meal programming that provide that stigma-free experience.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I would assume, then, that the federal monies for this program—the $1 billion, I think, over five years—will not be conditioned on the funds being used in a universal program. Am I correct about that?

[Hugues Vaillancourt]

On the funds, the objective here is to agree on a set of bilateral agreements with provinces and territories for focusing on and increasing and expanding existing school meal programming. Certainly, there are objectives around being stigma-free that are already, in many cases, objectives that provinces and territories have in their own programming, but the funding would not, as it exists, allow for all kids aged 4 to 18 to access the program.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That is the time. Thank you to the officials.

Thank you, MP Davies.

We are moving into our second round, and we want to get through the full second round.

We'll start with MP Morantz for five minutes, please.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before my time starts, I'd like Mr. Ayough to stay, please.

Mr. Ayough, come back.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

You're not getting away so fast.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I have stopped the time, as I did with MP Davies, in order to let officials know who you want at the table. If you want to let us know about others, that would be great.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Yes. In fact, I was just about to say that, Mr. Chair. Thank you for that.

I would like Mr. Bonnyman from debt management.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Are they here?

Do you want to get started, MP Morantz?

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Depending on how my time goes, I may have one other, but we'll see.

Mr. Mahmoudi Ayough, do you happen to know what was the greatest number of housing completions in Canada in a single year in recent years?

[Babak Mahmoudi Ayough]

I don't have that data with me, but I can—

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I happen to have it in front of me. Statistics Canada reported that in 2021 there were 222,670 houses completed in Canada. It actually went down in 2022 to 219,942. Now, CMHC said about a year ago that to deal with the housing crisis we have to build 3.1 million homes in Canada over and above what we normally do, and just a few weeks ago the Prime Minister announced that the government plans to build 3.9 million homes between 2024 and 2031, which is roughly seven years. That would mean the home building industry in Canada would have to build 550,000 homes every year. Do you think that's realistic?

[Babak Mahmoudi Ayough]

I think in budget 2024 there are measures. It's not with CMHC.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

It's a pretty straightforward question.