Finance Committee on May 30th, 2024

[Kevin Murphy]

Yes, that's correct.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Okay, and one minor change in a federal act would allow these individuals to obtain ownership of their unit during the interim occupancy period. Is that correct?

[Kevin Murphy]

That's correct.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

In other provinces, what happens? Are you aware of the process in other provinces? What does the interim occupancy period in B.C. look like?

[Kevin Murphy]

In B.C. they go to full completion of the building, including all amenities, and then they close, so there is no interim occupancy period. However, having said that, most of the B.C. developers are also very active in Ontario, and with a solution such as ours, they would lobby the government to introduce an interim occupancy period, which would allow for them to get their money sooner, allow for the purchaser to own the unit sooner and free up all the capital that would be trapped otherwise.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

That's very interesting, so if the government were to make a change, you actually might be able to open up flexibility in other markets to help release money back into the construction sector to go on to the next project.

[Kevin Murphy]

Yes, that's correct. The average interim occupancy period in Ontario is 12 months, so we would be looking at accelerating the liberation of all that capital 12 months sooner.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

That sounds like a very big positive benefit.

[Kevin Murphy]

The quantum is approximately $30 billion annually. To put that in perspective, when I managed the interim project financing book at RBC, the total authorized project book was $7 billion, over four times the total book that the biggest bank in the country carries in Ontario.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Right, but that was just for Ontario.

[Kevin Murphy]

That's correct.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Presumably for the entire Canadian market it might be $60 billion.

[Kevin Murphy]

Yes.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I suppose the risk would be that a developer would have interim occupancy but then, for whatever reason, couldn't finish. Are you aware of any examples of interim occupancy being granted and the development, for some reason, failing? I suspect that must be very rare, given that people would already be living in the building.

[Kevin Murphy]

It's actually never occurred. Since the Condominium Act was enacted in Ontario in 1967, there have been over 12,000 building completions. Not one has failed to achieve registration.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

You've presented to the government an opportunity to make a very small change in an act that would release a bunch of money—significant amounts of money, billions of dollars—into the construction sector, for which there is virtually no risk. Are you aware of any reasons as to why the government hasn't done this yet or what the issue might be?

[Kevin Murphy]

It's still under active consideration, and it's about understanding the entire process, as well as the documentation that affords the security they're accustomed to getting.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Okay. I'm very, very interested in this proposal. I think you and I have chatted before about this. I hope the government is listening. Perhaps I could have some discussions with my colleagues, and maybe there would be an opportunity to unanimously amend the budget implementation act to add a section that might make that small regulatory change. Do you have the recommended language that you would require? Have you had a lawyer draft that up for you?

[Kevin Murphy]

We do. We actually have a legal opinion confirming our compliance with the act, save and except for this particular definition. What we're asking for is being done currently in Alberta and has been used in Alberta for over a decade.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Murphy. I have to stay on time here.

[Kevin Murphy]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Chambers.

Now we go to MP Sorbara for the next six minutes.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for their testimony.

Before I get to my questions today for this panel, I want to highlight a couple of points on our economy. There is some good news, which I think needs to be highlighted.

All of us have journeys here. I was blessed to grow up in northern British Columbia in a great little city called Prince Rupert. I'm very happy to see, with regard to investment in Canada—in British Columbia, in this instance—that AltaGas and Royal Vopak have approved a $1.35-billion terminal that will export energy products such as propane to Asia from British Columbia. Everyone knows that, in the supply chain in Canada, Prince Rupert's port has two to three days of quicker shipping time over to Asia. It's better than Vancouver, Long Beach and Seattle.

I just received the announcement of a huge expansion to the port of Prince Rupert. It includes the Canada Infrastructure Bank providing a $150-million investment, literally, for this city and for the hard-working, middle-class Canadians in Prince Rupert. This is about $2 billion in investments going into the town I was born and raised in. I still have family there and a lot of friends. These are good, middle-class jobs with great benefits and great futures.

It's great to see investments taking place in all parts of Canada. Here in Ontario, there are investments with regard to the auto sector, the nuclear sector and so forth. There's AI in other parts of the country.

In this case, in northern British Columbia, we've seen literally $2 billion in investments announced within the last two weeks. It's in a very crucial part of our country with regard to the supply chain—the CN Rail facility in Prince Rupert, the port and so forth. It's very good news. I was very excited to read it this morning. Again, it demonstrates what I think is the right track that we are on in terms of building a strong economy—not only for today but also for the future and our children. I know many of us here are parents, and that's what's important.

I would like to go to the individual who spoke about the food program they run. This is for the Fresh Roots Urban Farm Society.

I hope I understood your comments correctly, etc. I want to ask about establishing a national food program for folks.

Just how important is it for us to put forward a national school food program for children across the country?

[Sherry Stevenson]

This is extremely important for the health and well-being of children across the country. Many children are food-insecure across the country. About one in four children suffer food insecurity. By providing food at school, we can ensure they have the nutrition, energy and ability to learn and engage in school.

The investment in supporting a national school food program will help us implement this right away—by the next school year, starting in September. We would really love to see these partnerships between the federal and provincial or territorial governments get started, in order to make sure those funds run smoothly and we can start investing more in our food programs across the country.

Yes, this is very important and beneficial to children all across the country, and to our communities and future well-being.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you for providing that colour.

I believe you're in downtown Toronto, in the wonderful and beautiful riding of Davenport, up in the York region. I have spoken to the officials at York Region who are in charge of the school food program. They are very excited. I don't mean to quote them verbatim, but they are very excited. They have also put in recommendations for the design of the school food program, because they know full well we can't allow kids to go to school hungry. That's just not acceptable in a country like Canada.

This measure really builds upon.... I was just so happy to see this week that the Canada child benefit, which is a tax-free, monthly benefit going to families across the country in every riding, will now increase up to a maximum of $7,800. This is for kids under six, I believe. It will increase to $7,800. Again, this is just part and parcel of the continued building of a foundation to have support for families. It's just wonderful to see.

Obviously, this also builds upon the national early learning and child care program. In the province of Ontario, by September 2025, the aim is to have an average of $10-per-day day care. My family is very blessed. We're benefiting from the 52% reduction in fees. It's literally over $8,000 a year that the residents in my riding and in the day care centre my daughter goes to are benefiting from. Those are real savings for families.

These are real programs making a difference for families, not only in my riding of Vaughan—Woodbridge, but across the country.

Peter, you can let me know when I'm out of time.