Finance Committee on June 4th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 147 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance.

Pursuant to the House of Commons order of reference adopted on Wednesday, May 22, 2024, and Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting to discuss Bill C-69, an act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on April 16, 2024.

Before we begin, I would like to ask the members and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents.

Please make note of the following preventative measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. Only use a black, approved earpiece. The former grey earpieces must no longer be used. Keep your earpiece away from the microphone at all times. When you are not using your earpiece, place it face down on the sticker placed on the table for this purpose. Thank you to all for your co-operation.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the Standing Orders. In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I'm informed that all witnesses have completed required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Actually, this is not exactly correct, members. There may be witnesses or officials who need to come on if you have any questions, and they would be tested at that time. There are too many of them available to us. It will be done when they are asked to come before us.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the members and witnesses.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For members in the room, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can, and we appreciate your understanding in this regard. Also, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

I'd like to provide the members of the committee with a few comments on how the committee will proceed with the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-69. As the name indicates, this is an examination of all the clauses in the order in which they appear in the bill. Pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, May 28, 2024, all clauses for which no amendment was submitted will be considered and voted on first, although I believe that there have been some discussions and that may change somewhat at the beginning, when members are able to pull out some of those clauses.

We'll follow that with the clauses with amendments. I will call each clause successively, and each clause is subject to debate and a vote. If there are amendments to a clause in question, I will recognize the members proposing them, who may explain them.

In addition to having to be properly drafted in a legal sense, amendments must also be procedurally admissible. The chair may be called upon to rule amendments inadmissible if they go against the principle of the bill or beyond the scope of the bill—both of these were adopted by the House when it agreed to the bill at second reading—or if they offend the financial prerogative of the Crown.

Amendments have been given a number on the top right corner to indicate which party submitted them. There is no need for a seconder to move an amendment. Once moved, you will need unanimous consent to withdraw it. During debate on an amendment, members are permitted to move subamendments. Approval from the mover of the amendment is not required. Subamendments must be provided in writing. Only one subamendment may be considered at a time. The subamendment cannot be amended. When a subamendment is moved to an amendment, it is voted on first. Then another subamendment may be moved, or the committee may consider the main amendment and vote on it.

Pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, May 28, 2024, if the committee has not completed the clause-by-clause consideration of the bill by 5 p.m., all remaining amendments submitted to the committee shall be deemed moved. The chair shall put the question forthwith and successively, without further debate, on all remaining clauses and proposed amendments as well as each and every question necessary to dispose of the clause-by-clause consideration of the bill and all questions necessary to report the bill to the House.

Finally, if members have any questions regarding the procedural admissibility of amendments, the legislative clerks are here to assist the committee; however, they are not legal drafters. Should members require assistance with drafting an amendment or a subamendment, they must contact the legislative counsel.

I thank the members for their attention and wish everyone a productive clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-69.

As I said earlier in my remarks, members, there are many witnesses. I believe there are about 70 or so who are available if members have questions, but they would have to come, many of them, online via video conference and they would have to be tested to get them going.

Now we will get started.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Chair, could I make a comment?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Yes. Go ahead, PS Turnbull, before we get into it.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I know you made mention of this in your opening remarks.

We discussed how we would deal with all clauses that have no amendments on them. We also discussed, as a group, how members could identify any clauses that needed to be picked out, which they may want to either speak about or vote against. Because we discussed that motion, I want to put it out there that it was decided by the committee. I put that on the record, I think, when I moved the motion that programmed our time together.

Out of respect for members and wanting to ensure we stick to what we agreed, I want to bring that to your attention. I'm hoping we can move, with a semblance of order, obviously, through the unamended clauses. I think what we might start with is picking out any clauses that members have already identified as ones they either want to vote against or speak about. Those, obviously, can't get grouped together if we're going to do some things in groupings.

I'm not sure if we're going to have unanimous consent to group some of the clauses, but I'm assuming we may.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, PS Turnbull.

I now look to MP Ste-Marie.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to all the senior officials who are with us today.

My question related to what Mr. Turnbull said. If we want to know what clauses a vote is being requested for, even if there are no amendments, does that mean that you want me to make a list of the ones I am requesting debate or separate votes for? Should I do that now or when we get there?

Also, I obviously agree with grouping all the others together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

I also have MP Davies to speak about this.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Yes.

Thank you to Mr. Turnbull for raising that. I think that represents what we said.

I can identify a few. The NDP has some amendments around division 31 of part 4. These entail clauses 322 to 333.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Davies, I'm going to stop you there. We'll do the room and capture all of those.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

It will be easier for the legislative clerks to put—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

You don't want me to mention—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I do want you to, but we can make sure. Once we do that, we'll get yours and MP Ste-Marie's. I don't know if the Conservatives have some. I don't know if the Liberals have some.

Are we ready to go on that, members—listing the clauses?

Okay, I see a thumbs-up from MP Ste-Marie.

MP Davies, thank you for that.

We'll get a list, now, of all those clauses.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm not sure I can be totally comprehensive, but these are the ones I think we have. First is division 31 of part 4, clauses 322 to 333. These are the ones that amend the Food and Drugs Act. We have amendments to some of those clauses, specifically—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I'm going to stop you for one second.

MP Davies, you were reading some of the clauses that have amendments, and we have those.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

By the way, we should just speak in terms of clauses, I guess. You don't need a division. Is that right?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Right.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay. I have amendments to clause 326, clause 327 and clause 328. Those are my amendments. However, they fall within a section that embraces clauses 322 to 333 inclusive. I intend on potentially voting against some of those clauses, even though I'm not amending all of them.

It's funny. The ones that I'm going to vote against come up before the ones I'm amending. I think we should set aside.... Well, I'm not sure how we're going to handle it. I'm just identifying for you that those are the clauses I intend to speak on and vote against, as they include some of those I'm amending.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

The main thing here is that the legislative clerks understand the sequence of how we're going to go and if it works, but thank you.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

It may just work anyway because, if clause 322 comes up, which I'm not amending, I may just vote against it, so we could be able to go sequentially.

I have one other area, which is around clause 386.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Wait one moment. We're going to stop for a second. I'll come back.

The recommendation is that I would read the list—which is how I was going to start—of all of the clauses that are not being amended. Then, as we go through the list, we will look to pull out whichever ones need discussion. Is that what you're looking for?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. Are you going to read the list of clauses that are not being amended? That's almost the entire bill. Wouldn't it be faster to read...? I mean, hundreds and hundreds of clauses, which you're about to read out, are not being amended. What's the purpose of reading those out?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We have grouped those clauses. We have grouped them all.

Let me just do this first part, members. Then I'll stop, and you'll see where we are.

Pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on May 28, 2024, we will first consider and vote on all clauses for which no amendment was submitted. There were no amendments submitted for clauses 1, which is the short title, 2 to 37, 39 to 79, 81 to 122, 117 to 122, 125, 126 to 130, 131 to 146—

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. We do have some amendments between clauses 111 and 130.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Just a moment....

I'm back. As I was going through the list, MP Hallan, I got to clause 112, and then I said, “117 to 122”. What was between clauses 112 and 117 was not captured, and there is an amendment.