Evidence of meeting #148 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was banks.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter Routledge  Superintendent, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions
Robert Kavcic  Senior Economist, BMO Bank of Montreal
Robert Hogue  Assistant Chief Economist, Royal Bank of Canada
Rebekah Young  Vice-President and Head of Inclusion and Resilience Economics, Scotiabank
Rishi Sondhi  Economist, TD Economics, TD Bank Group

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Members, we are back with our second panel on policy decisions and market forces that have led to increases in the cost of buying or renting a home in Canada.

With us for our second panel, from BMO, Bank of Montreal, we have Mr. Robert Kavcic, who's a senior economist there. We are having technical challenges, I understand, with Desjardins Group, so Monsieur Jimmy Jean may not be able to be with us for this panel. From the Royal Bank of Canada, we have assistant chief economist Robert Hogue. From Scotiabank, vice-president and head of inclusion and resilience economics, Rebekah Young is with us; and from TD Bank Group, we have economist for TD Economics Rishi Sondhi.

Welcome.

With that, we're going to hear opening remarks first from Mr. Kavcic, for up to five minutes, please.

June 11th, 2024 / 12:10 p.m.

Robert Kavcic Senior Economist, BMO Bank of Montreal

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Honourable member, thank you for the invitation to appear at the House of Commons finance committee.

My name is Robert Kavcic, senior economist, BMO, covering analysis of housing market issues in Canada. My remarks and commentary today come from that perspective, as a macroeconomist on the housing market.

Housing affordability is pretty clearly a significant economic and social issue, and largely reflects the imbalance between demand and supply in the market. By most measures, housing affordability hasn't been this difficult from the perspective of a new homebuyer since 1990. Rent growth has also accelerated well in excess of income growth, and looking back at these measures, affordability, I would say, has really become an acute problem over the past three years or so.

In fact, when you look at our affordability measure that accounts for income, interest rates and home prices, it was more or less right in line with the 40-year average as recently as 2019.

The question is what has changed in that short period to cause a major supply-demand imbalance and drive such a dramatic deterioration in affordability. I think one popular narrative is that Canada just isn't building enough homes, but my takeaway from the housing data, from the labour market metrics and in speaking with industry participants across the country in homebuilding is that the industry has been running at pretty well full capacity.

In other words, we're already building almost all the housing that we possibly can in a natural response to market conditions. In the five years through 2019, just as an example, housing completions have averaged just over 190,000 units. In the last three years, as affordability was deteriorating, housing completions rose by about 20%. The current number of units under construction is at a record high in absolute terms or, if you adjust it, in per capita terms.

The supply side of the market isn't getting worse. It's just a matter of not being able to keep up with demand. Part of that demand growth is fundamental. We have very strong demographic demand from the millennial cohort. At the same time, we've seen international immigration rise from about 450,000 per year before the pandemic to almost 1.2 million people in the past year. This is a historic demand shock that does present a challenge to infrastructure, including housing.

To be very clear on this, I do believe that there are long-run benefits to a robust international immigration program. They are significant, and they should be maintained. We've shown an ability to meet housing demand created by that robust permanent resident program, but an additional 800,000 non-permanent residents in the past year has pretty clearly been difficult for the market to absorb on the supply side, and that is acutely reflected in surging rents.

Separately, on the demand side, interest rates were cut to historic lows when the Bank of Canada was easing them during the pandemic shock, until they began tightening policy in March of 2022. Deeply negative real interest rates drove outsize gains in house prices, which bred some speculative psychology in the market. That market psychology drove prices well in excess of underlying income, interest rate and demographic fundamentals, which we think are the root of house prices in the longer term.

Higher interest rates have since broken that psychology and have pulled prices down by 20% or more in some markets, but affordability won't necessarily improve until rates fall further, prices fall further or incomes are allowed to gradually catch up over time. They are, but it takes time.

Putting this all together, in summary, the demand-supply imbalance in housing has been created most acutely by surging demand, and the supply side is really doing all it can to keep up. Measures to improve the responsiveness of housing construction are certainly encouraged. The demand curve, though, seems like it is much easier to move in the short run, so appropriately calibrating demand to match our ability to provide adequate housing supply over time is probably where we have the biggest and, importantly, most achievable impact on affordability pressure in the near term.

Thank you for the opportunity to provide opening remarks. I'd be pleased to answer any questions later on.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Kavcic.

We'll now hear from Mr. Hogue from RBC.

12:15 p.m.

Robert Hogue Assistant Chief Economist, Royal Bank of Canada

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and committee.

Thank you for the opportunity to be speaking to you today. It's always a curse going second because a lot of the points that were raised beforehand are part of my opening remarks here.

What I would add is—

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

I'm going to have to interrupt, Mr. Hogue. We're having some challenges with your mic or headset. We're getting a lot of crackling coming through.

If you can unplug your headset and then plug it in again, we'll see if that will help.

12:15 p.m.

Assistant Chief Economist, Royal Bank of Canada

Robert Hogue

Is that better now?

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

No, the quality is still very poor, and it's not possible.

I'm sorry, Mr. Hogue, but we're not going to be able to hear from you.

12:15 p.m.

Assistant Chief Economist, Royal Bank of Canada

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

We'll go to Scotiabank now, and we'll hear from Rebekah Young, please.

You have up to five minutes.

12:15 p.m.

Rebekah Young Vice-President and Head of Inclusion and Resilience Economics, Scotiabank

Thank you very much. I'm pleased to have this opportunity to provide comments today.

My name is Rebekah Young. I'm vice-president and head of inclusion and resilience economics in Scotiabank Economics. I'll be providing perspectives from a macroeconomist perspective.

Also in my role, I provide thought leadership on sustainable economic growth by taking a longer-term look at structural forces impacting Canadian welfare. Clearly, housing is one of those issues.

Housing affordability in Canada has clearly been on a path of deterioration over the past few years, but the erosion of affordability has been going on for decades now. Market forces have been a big part of this story.

Picking up on some of what my colleagues said, household income has been a positive story. Household income for the average Canadian household has been outpacing inflation fairly consistently over the past few decades. This has increased their purchasing power.

While interest rates are currently high, they have been trending down structurally for decades, making it cheaper for Canadians to finance homes over time and, again, increasing their purchasing power.

Demographics are another obvious side of the demand equation. This includes both a growing population but also an aging population. What we see is that occupancy, or the number of individuals per household, has been declining over the past few decades. As a result, the demand for homes has, in fact, outstripped population growth over the past few decades.

I would just note on aging, because we are aging as a society in Canada, that it's important to acknowledge that many more Canadians want to age in place, and in some cases, alternatives like downsizing to a condo can, in fact, be more costly than staying in place, even if it means more bedrooms sitting empty.

Supply has no doubt been a major binding constraint against these demand-driven and demographic-driven forces. Again, looking past the last few years to the past few decades, there has been an erosion of the elasticity or the responsiveness of supply to housing demand. The reasons are numerous and well documented elsewhere, from regulatory to zoning issues to escalating development charges.

Labour is another one of the challenges. Despite record-high numbers of workers in the construction industry, the number of homes that we're building in Canada has not substantially changed on a trend basis. We see that CMHC has attributed this both to productivity declines in the sector as well as regulatory hurdles along the way in a very highly fragmented sector. However, the net effect is that it is taking longer, and it is more costly to build homes of all types in Canada today.

Returning to the bigger picture, all of these factors have been amplified over the past three years to push what's been a slow-burning affordability path to an acute one. There is no panacea to restoring affordability. We do think that priorities should be placed on supply, with a broad definition to include related housing infrastructure, and that care is needed when we look at demand-side measures given the risk of further exacerbating affordability. We should also be noting changing societal preferences and needs, and those should be taken into consideration.

Canada should be able to slow the acceleration of home prices over time, but this is going to take concerted and coordinated action across all levels of government and collaboration with private sector and social-purpose organizations. However, even if the home price appreciation is slowed or even decelerates modestly, there will be a subset of Canadians, namely lower, fixed-income Canadians, for whom appropriate shelter will still be unaffordable. Canada will likely need targeted solutions there.

I'll just elaborate very briefly on this point. We published a paper last year titled “Canadian Housing Affordability Hurts”, which has been raised by this committee a few times.

I underscore that a key finding was that first-best solutions still involve dismantling supply barriers and harnessing market forces to massively scale up housing across the market-based spectrum. However, that trickle-down effect will not reach—at least fast enough—a small subset of Canadians with little or no market income under most reasonable paths. Those gaps are wider than governments can reasonably alleviate through transfers alone on an ongoing basis. A do-nothing scenario is also not fiscally appropriate, as the knock-on effect on other social infrastructure from shelters to hospital beds to prisons is even more costly than the provision of subsidized or social housing.

I would reinforce, though, that the paper makes the case that it's not an either-or situation. It's not social housing or market housing, and it's not avoiding a polarization of public versus private provision. Rather, it's about the right mix that would serve all Canadians.

Just stepping back, I would point out through an economic lens that housing is part of a bigger system and there are trade-offs and opportunities to consider. The income investment and capital that go into housing are income investment and capital not going elsewhere. These do warrant full deliberation.

Just as a final point, I would also note that Canada is not unique and that, in terms of home prices to income as a ratio, Canada is about the middle of the pack relative to our OECD peers. More responsive supply is first-best, but we may need to consider more broadly how markets are structured to ensure suitable, adequate and affordable shelter for Canadians without stifling the economic growth drivers that ultimately secure welfare gains.

I'll stop there. Thank you.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Ms. Young.

Now we'll go to our final witness before questions.

Mr. Sondhi from the TD Bank Group, go ahead, please.

12:20 p.m.

Rishi Sondhi Economist, TD Economics, TD Bank Group

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My opening statement will be brief relative to those of my fellow panellists.

My name is Rishi Sondhi, and I'm an economist at TD Bank. I'm the economics group's housing-market expert, and I'm responsible for publishing research on housing and generating quarterly forecasts for home resales, average home prices in the resale market and housing starts.

The TD economics team's last official forecast was in March 2024, and we're right in the middle of updating our projection, which will be published on June 18. However, briefly I can say that conditions in housing markets have evolved broadly as we had anticipated in March during the spring season.

Last of all, I'd like to say that the views expressed today represent those of the TD economics team, including me, but do not necessarily represent the views of TD Bank more generally.

I look forward to your questions.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Sondhi.

We've had some technical challenges, so if there are any questions for Mr. Hogue, I would ask that you pose the question and Mr. Hogue could send the answer to the committee in writing. That's what can be done at this time.

Members, we're going to get into questions right now.

In the first round, I have MP Morantz for the first six minutes.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the economists for being here today.

Perhaps I'll start with you, Ms. Young. The Government of Canada announced in its budget that it's going to be increasing the capital gains inclusion rate from 50% to 66.66%. Just yesterday morning they introduced legislation to make that happen.

From an economist's perspective, do you think that the capital gains change as proposed by the Liberal government will lead to more or less investment in homebuilding?

12:25 p.m.

Vice-President and Head of Inclusion and Resilience Economics, Scotiabank

Rebekah Young

Thank you for the question.

You know, I haven't seen details of the legislation, so maybe what I will talk more broadly about is the impact of the costs of some of the headwinds to supply right now.

Very obviously a big one right now is high interest rates, so that—

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

I'm sorry. I hate to interrupt, but I have a fairly focused issue that I'd like to try to get a response on. The government has said they're increasing the capital gains inclusion rate, which means that builders will pay more tax in capital gains when they sell the projects they've built.

From an economist's perspective, doesn't that put a damper on risk-taking in terms of building new residential projects? Aside from knowing the details of the legislation, just in principle, as an economist, don't you think that increasing the capital gains tax would make it less likely that someone might build an apartment building or a tract of homes?

12:25 p.m.

Vice-President and Head of Inclusion and Resilience Economics, Scotiabank

Rebekah Young

We certainly know right now in the industry that development charges are a very big component in some sites—anywhere from 20% to 30% of the cost of new supply. That certainly, as a big chunk of what it costs to build, has been a deterrent to new supply.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Mr. Kavcic, maybe I'll try the same question with you. Do you think the increase in the capital gains inclusion rate will lead to more or less investment in homebuilding?

12:25 p.m.

Senior Economist, BMO Bank of Montreal

Robert Kavcic

Thank you for the question.

In the context of the overall investment activity within real estate, there is potentially an impact, either when sellers look to list properties in advance of a tax change or if the long-term economics of a tax increase alter the expectations of return going forward. I personally haven't seen the exact details of the legislation either, so I don't want to comment too deeply on it. Also real estate's a very long-dated asset, so the impact may or may not be as significant as it would be in some other asset classes.

More broadly speaking, I think for an investment asset class today, macroeconomic conditions are playing the overriding factor here. Because interest rates have increased, expectations of house price growth have decreased and current levels of rental yield don't stack up very well against risk-free government assets. As well, as an investment asset class today, real estate has kind of fallen back in terms of overall activity.

How a capital gains tax change fits in that broader context of weakening activity would already be very hard to flesh out and put a precise estimate on, I would think.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Okay. Let me ask you a question maybe in a bit of a different way.

If you were going to advise the government on the type of policy it should bring in to deal with the housing crisis, which is what this committee is studying right now and is why you're here, would you suggest increasing the capital gains tax would be one of those policies?

12:25 p.m.

Senior Economist, BMO Bank of Montreal

Robert Kavcic

With all honesty, I don't want to project the impact of a specific tax measure I haven't fully studied in this context.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Okay.

Mr. Sondhi, quickly, I'll ask you the same question. Do you think increasing the capital gains inclusion rate will lead to more or less investment in homebuilding?

12:25 p.m.

Economist, TD Economics, TD Bank Group

Rishi Sondhi

We wrote on this. We released a report that was a fulsome take on the latest federal housing plan. The capital gains inclusion rate was rolled into that report. In it we said the impact would be highly uncertain. It's difficult to know now because we don't have a line of sight with respect to how the legislation will be fully rolled out, but there's some risk that it will be a negative factor for investment going forward, which would potentially weigh on rental supply. That's a potential impact. Again, we have to wait to see how the details roll out and wait to see how the market reacts to the information.

In the resale market, our thought was that it could cause a near-term boost in listings and supply, as potential sellers work to get ahead of the June 25 deadline, which could supply some modest downward pressure on average home prices in the near term.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, MP Morantz.

Now we're going to MP Dzerowicz, and I guess you're sharing your time with MP Thompson.