Evidence of meeting #164 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was companies.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Katie Crocker  Chief Executive Officer, Affiliation of Multicultural Societies and Service Agencies of BC
Erin Benjamin  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Live Music Association
Pierre-Olivier Pineau  Professor, HEC Montréal
Terry Rock  President and Chief Executive Officer, Platform Calgary
David Clarke  Head, Government Affairs, TMX Group Limited
Charles-Félix Ross  General Manager, Union des producteurs agricoles
Marc St-Roch  Coordinator, Accounting and Taxation Department, Union des producteurs agricoles

5:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Affiliation of Multicultural Societies and Service Agencies of BC

Katie Crocker

Yes, absolutely, I can.

In that report, we looked at many different ways that we can understand that intersection of newcomers and housing. We looked at everything. The recommendations include finding ways to decrease the regulation requirements for permits and approvals, but there are even things like looking at the National Occupancy Standard, the NOS. When we're looking at housing and we're looking at newcomers coming in, often we're seeing these almost antiquated housing standards as a barrier for newcomers in accessing housing.

This goes to what Professor Pineau was talking about, the need to have this excessive amount of space, and it's contributing to our housing crisis. If we look at the National Occupancy Standard and understand how families live globally and how families can live successfully globally, we can also start to look at how we can maximize the space that we have so that there are more opportunities for newcomers to be able to access housing and access rental properties and purchase properties.

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you.

Thank you, MP Davies.

Now we're going to MP McLean, please.

6 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Thank you, Chair.

I have a question for Mr. Clarke again.

Mr. Clarke, you were talking earlier about the amount of economic damage that's been done over the last handful of years—you said 15 years, but I think that might be a little much—from the reductions in investment in Canada's oil and gas industry.

Can you elaborate on that just a little bit, please?

6 p.m.

Head, Government Affairs, TMX Group Limited

David Clarke

Specific to the energy industry, there's been a decline in investment that has been trending over more than a decade. I have to confess that it goes back to before my time in this role. As I mentioned, I would be more than happy to provide the hard data to the clerk for the benefit of the committee.

6 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Okay.

Mr. Clarke, in the rest of the world, oil and gas investment is going up, including in the United States and in Norway.

Would you suggest that maybe it's government policy that's slowing down oil and gas investment or reinvestment in Canada?

6 p.m.

Head, Government Affairs, TMX Group Limited

David Clarke

Certainly it's a cyclical industry. There are lots of factors at play here. I think I've been on the record already today talking about how—

6 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Is it more cyclical in Canada than it is elsewhere?

6 p.m.

Head, Government Affairs, TMX Group Limited

David Clarke

I honestly can't comment on that.

6 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Okay.

Do you think this new hurdle that the government has put in the way this week, creating more uncertainty in the Canadian oil and gas industry and the Canadian energy industry, is going to help our competitive position with other democratic countries that have oil production?

6 p.m.

Head, Government Affairs, TMX Group Limited

David Clarke

I don't, actually. I don't think it will.

6 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Do you think it will be worse?

6 p.m.

Head, Government Affairs, TMX Group Limited

David Clarke

Look, I can't comment on—

6 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

It's a right turn, left turn. It's going to be better or worse.

6 p.m.

Head, Government Affairs, TMX Group Limited

6 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

This is going to take 151,300 jobs out of Canada. It's going to reduce our GDP by 1% per year for the next decade, which is something else, because GDP last year only grew by 1.1%, even though we had more population, so it's almost zero on a net basis.

Do you think this is going to help the sector on the TMX? Do you think the TMX will lose listings because it is no longer a favourable place to invest in energy companies?

6 p.m.

Head, Government Affairs, TMX Group Limited

David Clarke

I think Canada is and remains an attractive place to invest. I really can't comment on the decisions that executives will make.

6 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

I'll check you on that, because if you're in the oil and gas industry and you're in a country that's saying we don't want you anymore, you're not going to be there. You'll look for other listings, much as BP looked for other listings when they moved out of the Netherlands to the U.K.

I'm sorry if I'm making you uncomfortable.

Let's talk about what this goes down to at the end of the day, because this is a finance meeting.

According to the Conference Board of Canada and Deloitte, this will result in 1.3% less government revenue across Canada.

What does government do if they lose revenue?

Sorry; it's a leading question.

They raise taxes.

Are they going to raise more capital gains taxes, in your opinion?

6 p.m.

Head, Government Affairs, TMX Group Limited

David Clarke

Thank you for the question. Thank you for all of your questions.

That's not for me to say. What I can say is that we're here to be a constructive partner with governments, whoever is in office.

6 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

The question I'm trying to pose to you, which you seem to be avoiding, is whether this greater uncertainty created by this federal government in the oil and gas industry and the energy industry is going to be beneficial for the companies that list on the TMX exchange or the opposite of beneficial.

6 p.m.

Head, Government Affairs, TMX Group Limited

David Clarke

Thank you for the question. I am not trying to avoid your question. I'm just not necessarily in a position to answer it directly.

What I can say—

6 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Okay. Let me quote the Minister of the Environment, who said that no other country in the world that produces oil and gas is doing anything like this.

Why do you think that is? You can say it's a stupid policy if you want to.

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Why don't you just give him the evidence, Greg?

6 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

I am.

November 7th, 2024 / 6 p.m.

Head, Government Affairs, TMX Group Limited

David Clarke

Again, I appreciate the question. I'm not trying to dodge it. I don't have a good answer for you.

6 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Okay. You have no good answer.

Let me go back to Mr. Rock on this absurd number of people who are actually affected by this capital gains inclusion rate increase.

There are a number of people who are working for companies under your tech umbrella. How long will one of them work before they actually incur a capital gains inclusion?