Finance Committee on Feb. 7th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 17 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to the motion adopted in committee on December 16, 2021, the committee is meeting to study the pre-budget consultations in advance of the 2022 budget.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website, and the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

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I also request that members not go much over their allotted question time. Though we will not interrupt during the members' allotted time, I'd like to keep you informed that our clerk has two clocks, which time our members and witnesses.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses.

As an individual, we have Ian Lee, associate professor for the Sprott School of Business, Carleton University. From Campaign 2000, we have Leila Sarangi, national director. From Canada's Building Trades Unions, we have Mr. Sean Strickland, executive director. From Canadians for Affordable Energy, we have Mr. Dan McTeague, president. From the Etobicoke Services for Seniors, we have Ms. Alison Coke, chief executive officer. From Festivals and Major Events Canada, we have Martin Roy, executive director.

We're now going to hear opening statements from witnesses. Each of the witnesses, one per group, will have up to to five minutes to make their opening remarks before we move to members' questions.

We're going to start right off the top with Mr. Ian Lee.

[Dr. Ian Lee, Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee, for inviting me.

In 1953, the year I was born, Sir Isaiah Berlin, the great Oxford philosopher, wrote a remarkable book, in part about animals. Berlin stated that there are two kinds of thinkers in the world: the hedgehog and the fox.

Hedgehogs view the world through the lens of a single defining idea, and he gave as examples Plato, Hegel, Nietzsche and Proust. By contrast, foxes draw on a wide variety of experiences—for example, Shakespeare.

Today, I'm speaking to this committee as a hedgehog.

I have one more quote. The great general Napoleon Bonaparte stated that generals often prepare for and fight the last war, not the next war.

What was the last war in our time? From the early seventies, when I entered the workforce in Canada, until very recently, Canada confronted relatively high unemployment caused by the entry of millions and millions of boomers, coupled with significant levels of immigration, which many Canadians—I'm one of them—strongly support.

Consequently, for the past 50 years—1972 to 2022—every prime minister, every finance minister and every premier, MP, social activist, scholar and think tank has focused on issues surrounding unemployment, income supports, worker retraining and even suggestions for a guaranteed annual income, while federal and provincial governments have understandably spent hundreds of billions of dollars to address these urgent social problems.

Then COVID wandered into the nation's homes and businesses and, in one of the numerous paradoxes engendered by the COVID pandemic, caused temporary—as we very quickly learned—high unemployment, followed very shortly by a very strong, robust economic rebound, as specifically mentioned several times by Minister Freeland in the April 2021 budget speech. The very sharp economic snap-back exposed the desperate underlying labour shortages that are now the new pandemic in Canada and western countries.

Some MPs may already dismiss what I'm saying. Not so fast—I urge every MP to read the magnificent evidence-based book by Globe and Mail journalist John Ibbitson and Darrell Bricker, CEO of Ipsos Reid, called Empty Planet.

Over the last 20 years or so, as we have become ever more concerned with global warming, there have been increasingly loud complaints by environmentalists and activists that the planet is skyrocketing towards 10 billion people—some claim 11 billion or 12 billion—yet in Ibbitson's and Bricker's own words:

[A] growing number of experts are sounding a very different alarm. Rather than continuing to increase exponentially...the global population is headed for a steep decline—and in many countries, that decline has already begun.

These professional demographers, statisticians and mathematicians in leading research universities—not activist lobbyists—show that in almost every country in the world, and most certainly in Canada and the western countries, we are going to witness our population collapse to five billion people on earth. In plain English, this means that about 2.7 billion will vanish from the current 7.7 billion people on earth over the next 50 or 60 years.

The New York Times has regularly documented population decline such as, for example, in Japan, which is requiring the razing of homes, the destruction of homes, due to the lack of younger buyers. However, most MPs, government policy-makers and cabinet ministers advocate policies of yet more and more income support, as if this is 1972 all over again. What is needed is a complete change in what Max Weber called the Weltanschauung, or world view.

As former Liberal deputy prime minister Anne McLellan stated only yesterday in The Globe and Mail:

I'm not one of those who says, “Oh, let's not worry about the deficit and debt.” You absolutely have to. And you have to worry about productivity and you do have to worry about investment. I [want] to see a [growth] narrative in the 2022 budget. What is the narrative to get us to 2030 and net zero [emissions] in 2050?

It is urgent that budget 2022 shift and pivot away from policies that unwittingly incentivize people to remain out of the workforce.

Examples are COVID supports without conditions to require recipients to seek and accept job offers, or policies that incentivize early retirement, before the age of 67 strongly advocated by the OECD.

Indeed, the Government of Canada needs to announce a root-and-branch exercise to review all social policies across the government, with the objective of identifying policies that incentivize people who remain outside the workforce or retire from the workforce before the age of 67 as recommended by the OECD.

In the words of Minister Freeland in budget 2021, “We are all in this together.”

Members of Parliament, it's now time to leave the 20th-century battles behind and start fighting the next war, which has already arrived, of massive labour shortages in Canada.

Why? To paraphrase Prime Minister Trudeau, “because it is 2022”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Lee.

Now we're moving to Campaign 2000 and Ms. Sarangi.

[Leila Sarangi, National Director, Campaign 2000]

Hello, and thank you for inviting me to appear today.

My name is Leila Sarangi and I'm the national director for Campaign 2000, which is a coalition of over 120 organizations working to end child and family poverty.

Today I'll be highlighting several recommendations we've made in our budget 2022 submission and our latest child poverty report card, which found that more than 1.3 million children continue to live in poverty. That's nearly one in five kids, but the rates are much higher for indigenous children, racialized or immigrant children, children with disabilities and children in lone mother-led families, among others marginalized by systemic barriers. These families are living in deeper poverty, and inequalities are growing. While the national rate of child poverty reduced slightly in the last year, when we looked by province and territory we found that it actually increased in several of those subjurisdictions.

Today I'm going to focus on two areas, income benefits and child care, although we address many other essential areas in those documents.

The first is the need to budget for a full CERB amnesty. Funds that have been earmarked in the fiscal update to repay seniors who lost GIS must be released now. We've been hearing from seniors who've lost their housing, who are living in their cars, and who can't afford their food and their medications. Many have contemplated suicide because of this hardship, and too many have already lost their lives. We implore you on their behalf to pay an emergency $2,500 to those seniors now and to create a new $100-million housing fund to help keep all clawback victims housed.

The CERB has interacted with other federal and provincial benefits. In addition to losing GIS, people with low and moderate incomes have lost child benefits, worker benefits, GST credits, social and disability assistance, housing supplements and other provincial benefits such as those for energy and child care costs, which they depend on to get through these extraordinarily difficult times.

A full CERB amnesty would mean that all clawed back benefits would be returned, and it would mean a stop to pursuing low- and moderate-income individuals for repayments of pandemic benefits. It would ensure that pandemic benefits would not negatively interact with income benefits in this or future tax years. It would immediately increase the current lockdown benefit to $500 a week and maintain that amount until EI is reformed.

We also recommend using the Canada social transfer to ensure the adequacy of income programs by increasing investment by $4 billion and tying funds to adequacy standards, making sure that provincial and territorial programs are meeting human rights obligations.

Our last two annual report cards have found that the Canada child benefit is losing its power. It needs significantly more investment into the base amount so it can reach children who are left in deep poverty. Repealing the section of the Income Tax Act that ties eligibility to immigration status will enable access to people who have precarious immigration status but are considered residents under the Income Tax Act.

We support the recommendation of disability communities to speed up the design and implementation of the new federal disability benefit, and we recommend a federal disability benefit for children as well.

While the tax system is broad and ongoing activities to bring more people into it are important poverty reduction initiatives, it will never be a universal system. We need a parallel benefit distribution system that is federally funded and works with local charities in communities to get benefits to people who are outside the tax system. This kind of work is already happening informally across the country, and there are jurisdictions that have formalized programs around the world that we can learn from.

Lastly, on child care, a national system has the power to be transformational if designed with low-income families in mind. Our recommendation is a sliding-scale, zero to $10 per day model that reduces fees through funding of operational costs, not through an individual parental fee subsidy model, which we know from experience hasn't worked for families and doesn't actually reduce fees. Operational funding must also factor in decent wages for staff, and provincial and territorial wage grids will be an essential piece of that funding policy.

Thank you for your time today. I look forward to answering any questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. Sarangi.

Now we're moving to Canada's Building Trades Unions and Mr. Sean Strickland for five minutes.

[Sean Strickland, Executive Director, Canada's Building Trades Unions]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. It's a real pleasure to be here. Thanks to you and the committee for allowing us to present today.

My name is Sean Strickland. I'm the executive director of Canada's Building Trades Unions, part of North America's Building Trades Unions.

We represent 14 international construction unions with a combined membership of over three million unionized construction workers, of whom 600,000 are in Canada.

The women and men of the building trades are employed constructing everything from small projects to large, multi-billion-dollar projects right across Canada. The construction and maintenance sector annually represents approximately 6% of Canada's GDP. Skilled trades workers are often employed later in the operation, renovation, maintenance, and repurposing of plants, factories and facilities. Our members and contractors build it and maintain it.

We recommend that budget 2022 consider the following.

One, maintain investments in infrastructure that provide good middle-class jobs, and remove the clutter that currently exists between federal, provincial and municipal governments to make sure the money for infrastructure projects flows more smoothly and quickly.

Two, apply community benefits agreements on federal infrastructure projects that provide opportunities to under-represented groups and apprentices. Community benefits agreements must be included in all federally procured construction contracts. We need to do better than provide aspirational goals for the industry in order for us to provide more opportunities for more people.

Three, ensure a just transition for energy workers along Canada’s path to net zero. We all know that there will be much job loss on the path to net zero, especially for Canada's energy workers. We need to make sure the right kinds of supports and training opportunities are available so workers can position themselves for the new energy supplies of the future.

More details of each of these will be contained in our formal submission.

There is, however, one simple, long-overdue, critically important issue that must be included in the 2022 budget: a skilled trades workforce mobility tax deduction.

This deduction will end the inequity in the Income Tax Act that currently treats skilled trades workers unfairly compared to salespeople and professionals in other industries, who can receive a tax deduction for their work-related travel costs. It will also encourage labour mobility for building trades members and all construction workers who, unlike workers in other occupations, are often required to travel for work. Also, it will potentially save the government an estimated $347 million a year based on independent analysis that has been shared with several members of this committee and the government.

The construction industry is cyclical; projects are developed, built and completed in different locations at different times, requiring a mobile skilled trades workforce to travel to where the work is. When expenses aren’t covered by an employer, workers often have to pay out of pocket for travel expenses, costs that can run into the thousands. When trying to support a family, the extra expenses make it too expensive to travel for work, thus creating a barrier to labour mobility and unbalanced labour markets; often in Canada we have a surplus of construction labour in some areas while at the same time shortages in others. Currently, the Income Tax Act treats skilled trades workers unfairly. Other professionals can receive a tax deduction for the cost of their travel, meals, and accommodations when not covered by an employer. The same option is denied to skilled trades workers.

For example, someone selling rebar or conduit for the construction of a new building can travel and deduct the cost of their travel, meals and accommodations from their income, while the same option is unjustly denied to skilled trades workers, who have to travel the same or a greater distance and incur similar costs to actually install the rebar and conduit. Clearly, this is unfair.

Workers in the skilled trades will always have to travel for work. That’s why our members are called journeypeople. The tax system shouldn’t punish construction workers for their profession. CBTU and our 600,000 working men and women are buoyed and appreciative of this issue being included in both the Liberal and Conservative Party platforms and by the ongoing support of the NDP on this issue over the years. We are very hopeful that the inclusion of a tax credit in the Deputy Prime Minister's and Minister of Labour’s recent mandate letters will finally get this done, with one small change: construction workers need a tax deduction, not a tax credit. Why? A maximum credit of $600 will not provide enough of an incentive for workers to be more mobile. Depending on your total income, a tax deduction could provide tax savings of up to $2,000 or more, which will make it more attractive for a worker to travel to work. A deduction, not a credit, will level the playing field between construction workers and other workers.

It would also save the government money. CBTU commissioned an independent study that estimated that a skilled trades workforce mobility tax deduction could reduce reliance on employment insurance and increase government revenue to the tune of $347 million annually.

This is a simple and long overdue change to the Income Tax Act. It is in the best interest of the government, this Parliament, and all parties to support the inclusion of a skilled trades workforce mobility tax deduction in the 2022 budget to redress a current inequity in the Income Tax Act, provide reasonable incentives to improve labour mobility, help rebalance construction labour markets, and remove barriers for construction workers to travel, get to work and continue to build Canada.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Strickland.

Now we're moving to Canadians for Affordable Energy, with Mr. Dan McTeague, for five minutes.

[Dan McTeague, President, Canadians for Affordable Energy]

Mr. Chair, members, guests and witnesses, it's a pleasure to be here.

It's good see you again, Mr. Fonseca. It has been a number of years since we last commiserated, and a lot of water has gone under the bridge since that time.

Canadians for Affordable Energy is really the brainchild of the work I have done over the years on energy, not just in my previous jobs with GasBuddy or tomorrowsgaspricestoday.com, but also, of course, as a member of Parliament, where I led a number of initiatives dealing with the cost of energy and its implications on Canadians' finances. That affects everyone, whether it happens to be those on fixed incomes, those in the business sector, or students who are making their way into a most uncertain future.

Part of my message in being here today is really not one of providing guidance as to how the government should deliberate in terms of its expenditures, but perhaps borrowing from the past in terms of where I think the government may want to consider moving, and that's considering the dramatic significant increase in energy prices. Here I'm not only talking about gasoline or diesel prices, which are now at all-time records, but, of course, utilities costs, the ability for people to make ends meet in an unusually cold winter. Perhaps it's a sign of things to come, where we are seeing many people have to reach much deeper into their pockets, whether that be to heat by propane, for furnace fuel or for stove oil.

What we're seeing right across Canada is unusual. Perhaps it's not exceptional given what we're seeing in Europe today, but it's certainly an unusual spike in prices. If I go back just to the beginning of this year, Mr. Chair, the increase in energy prices now works out to about 14%. If one looks at, for instance, diesel prices, which are also a barometer for heating fuels and natural gas, on markets, we're looking at an increase that began at the beginning of the year at about $1.35 on average in Canada now pushing well towards $1.65. Ditto for gasoline at a time in which we're trying to come out of the COVID recovery. I think it's not lost on most of you as representatives, and you are getting some calls on this, but I would expect that there are some solutions.

I'll conclude very briefly, because I don't want to take up the five minutes. I want to hear from other witnesses as well as some of your questions. One of the tried and true methods has been to provide a rebate for Canadians. That is not a unique thought. The Liberals did it twice, in 2000 and 2002, in terms of an energy rebate. That is basically derived from the fact that as these prices go much higher, and are likely to remain high—not just because of carbon taxes but because of the dynamics in a market in which there is, obviously, a global shortage of oil and other important hydrocarbons—we're likely to see a scenario in which federal and provincial governments, through GST/HST, are going to be in receipt of a substantial windfall. I would think perhaps it might be best for governments to really strongly consider remitting some of that in the form of a GST rebate or other means.

I realize, of course, as well, that the government's finances are not exactly great emerging from prepandemic and pandemic expenditures, but as far as providing an impetus to growth and allowing for an orderly ascension from the COVID period, I think such an initiative would certainly be in order.

I also believe that governments may want to consider collectively for now what many other nations are looking at, and that is a moratorium on any future taxes on energy, whether it be electricity, natural gas, propane, diesel or gasoline. That would inevitably mean.... I'm, of course, making a big request here, because I know it runs counter to the narrative, but I think we would need to look at a moratorium on carbon taxes as well.

If we don't do that, and if we think we can rely on the idea that rebates will take care of it, I'm concerned about the inflationary effect this has and the secondary consequential effects this has. Whether you speak to farmers or those in the energy sector on all sides, you're looking at most admitting that the price and the cost of living is becoming, for many, unattainable. I think we all can agree, politics aside, that once you start messing around with the price of food, you have a much more serious problem on your hands.

I would suggest very humbly but very directly that one of the solutions to what I admit is a very complex problem would be to look at a moratorium on carbon taxes for now—on the increase in carbon taxes—as well as rebates to help Canadians defend themselves in a period and an era in which we are going to see inflation pretty much destroy the purchasing power of many.

I don't need to mention the fact that the weakness in the Canadian dollar, at a time of high energy prices, is something we have not witnessed in many years.

In fact, in 2014, when we saw oil pushing at $90 a barrel, the Canadian dollar traded within about 5%-8% of the U.S. greenback, which was important because we price all of our commodities in U.S. terms.

The fact that it now takes 127 pennies adds significantly to the cost of living for everybody, and is perhaps a hidden inflationary effect that I'm not sure statisticians are picking up when it comes to telling us what the inflation rates will be.

I'll leave that to the brighter folks out there, but in the meantime the two recommendations are ones that we believe would do well. They would prevent and lessen injury to the Canadian economy and to your constituents.

I look forward to your questions

in French and English.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. McTeague.

We'll now move to the Etobicoke Services for Seniors. We have Ms. Alison Coke, chief executive officer, for five minutes.

[Alison Coke, Chief Executive Officer, Etobicoke Services for Seniors]

I want to thank you for the privilege of speaking to this committee and use this opportunity to provide insights into the roles of home and community care agencies, like the one I represent.

Etobicoke Services for Seniors, like so many other home and community care agencies, supports seniors, adults with disabilities and their caregivers.

I have learned, from both personal and professional experience, that what agencies like mine do is not well understood. Too often, it is only when families are in crisis that they seek our support. Had they been aware of our purpose and the kinds of programs and services we offer, so much human suffering and economic cost to our health and long-term care system could have been avoided.

For these reasons, I am asking this committee to support a public education campaign to raise the awareness of all Canadians about the home and community care sector, specifically what we do and why we do it. We are out there with the specific goal of helping seniors, adults with disabilities and their caregivers live as well as possible, for as long as possible and as independently as possible in their own homes and communities.

The many services we provide, such as adult day programs, transportation, overnight and in-home respite care, assisted living support, and health and wellness, are aimed at achieving three outcomes: to provide information and knowledge, to combat isolation and to build networks, connections and communities.

Many folks thrive through their golden years, but as time passes, each of us will experience losses. While this is no surprise in the abstract, the experience is far from academic. With age, the risk of economic insecurity, the risk of failing health, the declining physical and cognitive capacity, and above all, the risk of loneliness, all rise.

Home and community care agencies understand these risks and, in partnership with clients, implement programs to address them. The relationships we build with our clients often span decades, sometimes 30 years. They grow old with us. The first contact may be through fitness and wellness check-in calls, but by intentionally staying in touch with clients and their caregivers, we learn of their changing needs and circumstances. Do they need transportation to the barber or to a doctor appointment? Would they benefit from gathering socially for meals or recreational events? Could their personal health situation mean that they need in-home or 24-7 respite care or adult day programming?

Many Canadians simply do not know about the home and community care sector and that these kinds of services are what we provide. Because of this, when such supports are needed, they don't know who to turn to or how to access them. There is a real need to fill this knowledge gap, and a campaign to raise awareness about what home and community care agencies do and how to access them would help so many in three main ways.

Canadians need to know that we are there to provide information and knowledge. I suspect that many of you have or are now supporting aging relatives. When I experienced this with my own parents, I had no idea what they were going through. More troubling, I had no idea where to turn for help. The system was fragmented with, as the baseball saying goes, no one seemingly on first. I know that many people are now or have had this same experience.

For example, recently I received a call from a person with a long history of activism on behalf of seniors. She was anxious because her doctor advised her that she would be discharged almost immediately after an upcoming operation. While very capable, she lived alone, and she knew she would not be able to take care of herself after the surgery. I told her about our 24-7 caring centre, where she would have a private room, all her meals, assistance with showering and dressing and staff happy to sit down to enjoy a cup of tea or to simply chat. If this truly well-informed person did not know about this service, what are the chances that so many others with less connection because of language and other barriers would know that such help is available?

Many of you with seniors in your lives are in the same boat. You need to know where to get help for your loved ones. Just when you need it most, where do you start? People need to know that this kind of help is available before they face a crisis. Providing this information is a key role that home and community care providers play.

Second, we are there to combat the social isolation that so many seniors, adults with disabilities and their caregivers experience. At the best of times, aging can be very isolating. COVID raised this to a whole new level. One example of how our agency met this challenge was by launching a food security program. As soon as the pandemic was announced, all our group programs were suspended, and all the staff involved in these programs shifted to a new mode of operation. Every single one of our clients got calls every week. Again and again, we heard how difficult it was for folks to access food and essentials. In the first few weeks, conversations were short—“we're fine”—but over time, they got longer. Fear of taking public transit and their physical frailty prohibiting them from carrying heavy grocery bags any distance were among the barriers they faced.

As more closures occurred, the demand for rides in our vehicles declined. We had vehicles and staff available as never before, so we launched a grocery program, asking our clients and caregivers to call us with their lists. We placed their orders with a No Frills partner and packed the bags. Our staff picked up and delivered these groceries to their doorsteps. Today we have completed over 1,500 grocery deliveries.

Because we knew that food insecurity challenges extended well beyond our client base into the community at large, ESS teamed up with others to meet this need. Unprecedented inter-agency collaboration occurred. For example, through a partnership with Toronto Community Housing, we helped deliver prepared meals and food hampers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. Coke. That was great. You're going to have a lot of opportunity during question time to elaborate on many of those programs. Thank you so much.

We are going to move to Festivals and Major Events Canada. We have Mr. Martin Roy up for five minutes.

[Martin Roy, Executive Director, Festivals and Major Events Canada]

Good morning, everyone.

FAME, the Festivals and Major Events Canada coalition, and the Regroupement des événements majeurs internationaux, or REMI, represent over 500 festivals and events in Canada.

We rejoiced greatly when the 2021-2022 budget was tabled; we believed that the nightmare of COVID‑19 was about to end and that the funding would repair the damage done. Yet, one year later, we are still here asking you to intervene.

The Major Festivals and Events Support Initiative, or MFESI, this new program with a budget of up to $200 million managed by the regional economic development agencies, is not delivering on all of its promises.

The main problem is that this program took more than six months to receive its first applications, and gave its first responses to festivals and events eight months after the budget, so that this two-year program has effectively become a one-year program and only covers one series of festivals, the 2022 series. We missed the 2021 edition. I therefore implore you to recommend that the end of the program be deferred from March 31, 2023, to March 31, 2024, so as to cover the summer of 2023 and a second series of festivals.

The other problem we see is that this program is too restrictive. By choosing to limit access to festivals with annual revenues of more than $10 million, the government has restricted its accessibility to 25 Canadian festivals taking place in three or four Canadian provinces.

This choice has also resulted in a huge imbalance between the help given to large events, through MFESI, and that which is set aside for other festivals, those with revenues of less than $10 million per year. There are about a thousand of them supported by Canadian Heritage and together they can count on much less than $200 million.

The fact is that this $200 million announced for local festivals is also used for community cultural organization events, such as outdoor theatre presentations, heritage celebrations, local museums and sporting events, and much more, according to the budget itself. At the end of the day, there is very little funding left for festivals and events relative to their needs, relative to the scale of the disaster in our area and relative to their numbers too.

To distribute the money in the budget, Canadian Heritage chose to establish a Recovery Fund for Arts, Culture, Heritage and Sport Sectors, and a Reopening Fund for Heritage Organizations. Ten months after the budget, the Reopening Fund for Heritage Organizations, which is part of the Canada Arts Presentation Fund, is not available. We are talking about $25 million. Festivals still have no idea what they will be able to submit, or even when, four or five months before the start of the season, almost a year after the budget. At the rate things are going, it's predictable that they'll get answers at best just before their event, if not during their event or even after, which is unacceptable.

Last year your committee advocated supporting the arts, culture, tourism and hospitality sectors with additional financial support for their revenues until the restrictions of COVID‑19 could be safely lifted. We are counting on this. Everything needs to be extended, with pro-rated envelopes and adjustments. This includes the Reopening Fund for Heritage Organizations and the Recovery Fund for Arts, Culture, Heritage and Sport Sectors at Canadian Heritage, the Major Festivals and Events Support Initiative, and of course the measures included in Bill C‑2

We believe that if the MFESI is extended, the same could be done, that is add $100 million to the $200 million, while expanding the program to smaller events, to help not 25, but several dozen in year 3 of the program.

Last July, I sent your committee recommendations that touch on the normalcy of the sector in a brief, because at that time we were seeing a return to normalcy. I will be able to clarify my thoughts on this later. In general, even without a pandemic, it has to be said, things are not getting any better. We have members who are now receiving less support than they did in 2018, and yet in 2019 the government reinvested 25% to 40% in the two programs that assist the festivals.

In closing, I also stress the need for Economic Development Canada and the economic development agencies to create a complementary program to support festivals and events, given their contribution to tourism and the economy, especially festivals and events that are not cultural and are not supported by Canadian Heritage. This program should contribute $25 million per year. There is a whole category of festivals that are not currently supported. COVID‑19 showed us how vulnerable they are. Our friends at the Canadian Association of Fairs and Exhibitions, or CAFE, also support our request.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Roy, and all witnesses, for your opening remarks. We are moving now to our first round of questions by members. The first round is the six-minute round. That means each party will have up to six minutes to ask their questions of witnesses.

We're starting off with the Conservatives, and Mr. Chambers is up.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

It's nice to see everyone here today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to spend with us here at committee as we think about recommendations for this year's budget.

Professor Lee, thank you for your opening comments. Our government points to some strong economic growth that we've seen in the second half of this year, and frequently reminds us that we've recovered most, if not all, of the jobs that were lost at the beginning of the pandemic. The Bank of Canada has a growth outlook for 2022-2023 that is reasonable, and it says we're operating near capacity.

Given what you've seen from the current government in past budgets and what we know is to come with another hundred billion dollars in additional deficit spending, would you say we're on the right path economically?

[Dr. Ian Lee]

I'll be brief. I thought that the policy of the government providing income support from the beginning of COVID in March 2020 was completely appropriate. We were in this massive crisis. We didn't know where it was going. We didn't know how lethal it was and so forth. We all know the story.

However, since then, everything is dynamic. Economies are dynamic. The facts are dynamic. As the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is non-partisan, said only five or six days ago, there's no further justification, and we have to pivot. I know I'm sounding like the hedgehog, with only one big idea, that the world keep populating, but the data is overwhelming. We have a shortage of almost a million jobs, and let's be clear about what that means. There aren't enough people in long-term care homes to look after, yes, older people like me one day, if I get there. We have shortages and yet—and I say this with the greatest respect to MPs, because I think you have an incredibly challenging job—we have to pivot. It's not 1972. I've known 1972. I joined the workforce in 1972 and it is not 1972. It's not 1982. It's not 1992. We have massive job shortages and we're only at the beginning. We're not at the end. We're looking at 30, 40 or 50 years. Every serious demographic forecast by serious demographers in top-notch research universities says that these shortages are only going to get worse and worse, and we all say we'll solve them with immigration.

When other countries wake up and start to realize they have the same crisis, you're going to see countries restrict—and in the authoritarian, totalitarian countries, they're going to prevent—people from leaving their countries to go off to Canada so we can solve our job-shortage problem.

I'm saying, then, that we have to pivot. We have to adopt, as former deputy prime minister McLellan said, not only a growth agenda but also a focus, I think, on all hands on deck. We have to get everybody into the workforce that we possibly can, and I hope you look at what the OECD has been recommending for years. They said we're living longer and longer, yet we have retirement policies as if we were back when life expectancy was 60 or 65, but it's not that any more. It's in the 80s and it's increasing.

Therefore, we have to look at our policies on minimum retirement age. We have to look at making sure every income support program.... Of course, support people who need help, but tie it to a requirement that they must be seeking employment. We need all hands on deck in this economy.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

You mentioned the need to spend at the beginning of the pandemic, and you've also talked about the narrative or the justification for some of the spending that we saw. Of course, there were individuals who were devastated, parts of the economy unable to survive, people unable to provide for their families, but isn't it also true, according to some of the StatsCan data we've seen, that we spent a lot more than we needed to, in terms of a targeted approach, that we actually spent much more broadly than we needed to, to help people through the pandemic?

[Dr. Ian Lee]

That's the position I've said publicly in my various media interviews, and I have looked at the data very closely.

Just very quickly, the OECD, which is absolutely top-notch and impartial, showed that only two countries.... It was remarkable when you looked at the data. The PBO reproduced this data, I believe, or else it was the Bank of Canada in its MPR. Only two countries in the west saw GDP go down and income go up. One was Canada. The other was the U.S.

Normally, when you have an economic collapse, GDP goes down and national income goes down. We had this remarkable—I've never seen it in my lifetime, ever, studying economic data—GDP collapse, because we shut down the economy, and incomes went vertically north. GDP went south. Incomes went north. If you look at Germany, which is not a shabby country but a very progressive country, or at Sweden, France or the U.K., GDP and incomes went down, and they were pumping lots of support into the economy.

In other words, what I'm trying to say is that of course we needed to support people, but I think we supported companies and people who didn't need support when we could have gone on a far more targeted approach to target the most vulnerable members of society as opposed to people in the middle class or upper middle class.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Just quickly, in my last 10 seconds, is now the time for new government spending?

[Dr. Ian Lee]

I don't believe so. No. I don't believe so. The income support is no longer needed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Chambers.

We are moving to the Liberals.

Mr. Baker, you have six minutes.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you to all of our witnesses.

I'm going to direct my questions—unsurprisingly, I suspect, to many of my colleagues—to Alison Coke from Etobicoke Services for Seniors.

Ms. Coke, first of all, I want to express my thanks to you for the important work you do on behalf of seniors in our community in Etobicoke Centre and throughout Etobicoke and beyond. I have to tell you that when seniors or their children or grandchildren reach out to me or my team about health care needs, I very often rely, as I think you probably know, on Etobicoke Services for Seniors to do all that they can, and that you and your team always do. I don't know what we would do without you. Thank you for the service you're providing to seniors and others in our community.

During your presentation, you got cut off just because we ran out of time. Before I go into my questions, was there anything else you wanted to add that you didn't get a chance to say earlier?

[Alison Coke]

Yes. Thank you so much. I wanted to emphasize the third point. To be fair, I'm speaking for a community that doesn't necessarily have a strong voice. I really don't want to lose the opportunity to talk about what else we do on their behalf.

The third thing we do is build communities. Seniors and adults with disabilities are among the most marginalized members of our community for so many reasons—their age, cultural exclusion, poverty and health circumstances. The best way to help them overcome these barriers is to support them in building relationships and making connections. We do that with our caregiver support program, for example, bringing people together who are caring for adults with Alzheimer's or dementia, giving them a chance to share their struggles and get ideas from others in similar circumstances. It brings them relief and a chance to make friends with others who truly get it. They are silently suffering out there. This is terribly important work.

Another example of community development is our Daystrom program in north Etobicoke. Many people living in this area are newcomers, too often disconnected from services and supports because of language and culture. We hired a person with the ability to speak in their languages. It is one of the happiest programs. I have to tell you that when I go to meet with these folks, they always blow me away. Even though English may not be their first language, it is clear from their faces how much they love just being together. They have continued to meet virtually every week, something we've made sure they can do. The best outcome is that they've stayed connected.

With luck, we will all grow old. You and I are all travelling the same path. ESS's mission, and that of so many home and community care agencies, is to keep folks on the path in their homes and communities, catch them if they falter or lose their way, and hold their hands through the process. However, as I stated at the outset, too few people know that such agencies exist and how we can help.

How can we help before they're in crisis? Can you help raise their awareness of the home and community care sector, increasing their chances of living healthier, longer and more independent lives in their communities? If they knew where and how to access our supports, the opportunity to reduce the human and economic consequences of isolation and premature and unnecessary admission to acute and long-term care would be so much greater. I cannot think of a more valuable public service that you'd be providing.

Thank you so much for allowing me the opportunity to speak to this issue.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Ms. Coke.

We have just over two minutes left of my time, so I'll ask a couple of questions, time permitting.

You've advocated in your presentation for a public awareness campaign, which is a very pragmatic and thoughtful recommendation, one that allows people to be aware of and then navigate and access the services you provide that are all so important. I think we would all agree with that. You're not the only one doing this; there are agencies like yours across Canada that touch the ridings represented by the members here and others.

If we were to do that, if seniors and their families were to become much more aware of the services that you and others provide, I suspect we'd have increased demand for those services. Are there adequate services available? Is there adequate funding out there?

I realize health care is largely provincial jurisdiction, but is there enough funding out there to provide the services we need to provide to seniors?

[Alison Coke]

I'm going to come at that in two ways. I believe we have the capacity to expand, and part of the reason I believe that is the enormous number of volunteers who would be willing and happy to step up and support us. For example, I am speaking to a men's group at church tonight, with 100 people. They want to know how to volunteer.

If they could come out and help us with our food security support or do wellness check-ins, I believe there are people out there who truly understand how much need there is to serve seniors.

Yes, we would have to be extremely creative about going for funding to help us target the needs that seniors have. We haven't gone after money for food security. We have a food bank program going that we never had before.

I think there are opportunities to make the case, if only because the cost to the long-term care system and the acute care system of not doing so and the cost of human suffering just means that you have to do this work.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

It does, and I think I'm out of time. Thank you very much, Ms. Coke, for being here today.