Finance Committee on Feb. 14th, 2022

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

My understanding is that the department hasn't done an evaluation to determine whether the tax in question would help moderate rising real estate prices by a given percentage. It was simply a political directive. That's quite clear.

Thank you. That answers my question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

We are moving to the NDP, and MP Blaikie, for two and a half minutes.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

Further to that exchange with Mr. King, if the principal objective of the tax is to raise revenue, what is the projected revenue under the tax as it exists in Bill C-8, and what will be the revenue effect of the exemption the government has announced it plans to bring in by regulation?

[Phil King]

I'll have to pull up some information. That information is all published. The original revenue estimate for the tax was published in the 2021 budget.

For 2022-23, it's $200 million; for 2023-24, it's $170 million; and for the three subsequent years, it's $165 million. The proposed exemption that was put forward in the 2021 economic and fiscal update, we estimate it will reduce that revenue take by $30 million in 2022-23, and by $25 million in 2023-24, and thereafter.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

That's in the order of somewhere around a 20% revenue reduction?

[Phil King]

Maybe half that. Maybe 10%-12%. I'd have to do the math, but it's not quite 20%.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I know I was a little overtime last time, so I don't want to test the generosity of the chair too much this morning.

How am I doing there, Mr. Chair, for time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have a little over 30 seconds.

Do you want to cede the time?

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I'll let that pass, Mr. Chair.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Blaikie, we're glad you're here.

We now go to the Conservatives, and MP Stewart, for five minutes.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The pandemic has underscored the current state of health care in Canada. Health care institutions are overwhelmed. Massive gaps and shortfalls have been detected. The entire system is basically on the brink of collapse according to many in the medical world. Intensive care units are consistently filled with patients. Surgeries and procedures have been delayed, and staff are obviously very exhausted.

On February 4, Canada's premiers came together and called on the Prime Minister for help, requesting an unconditional $28-billion boost to health care transfers. Earlier last week in the finance committee and the weeks preceding, we uncovered $70 billion in new spending in this bill alone, yet none of it was for Canada health transfers.

Some economists were suggesting that any new spending should be directed at health care transfers because the times were not necessarily calling for spending on economic stimulus, and we met with several economists of varying opinions.

Considering there was $70 billion in new spending for this bill and economists are saying new spending should be directed towards health care transfers, was it ever discussed to make Canada health transfers part of this bill?

I'm looking for a yes or a no, and I'm fine with whoever can answer it.

[Galen Countryman, Director General, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

The dossier does not have anything regarding the Canada health transfer in the bill—

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

I realize that. My question was, was it ever discussed to include it in the bill?

[Galen Countryman]

That's a question for the government.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Therefore, the civil service has never been—

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, the officials are here to talk about Bill C-8. I don't know why Mr. Stewart wanted to ask questions on the health transfer to the provinces.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We will stick to Bill C-8, and as long as it's relevant to Bill C-8....

However, I'll allow Mr. Countryman to continue.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

[Inaudible--Editor]—

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

There is a significant amount of money that's being asked for regarding health care related issues, and I think normally we do have a bit of latitude. I've seen members go far further afield.

Given that we're talking about a substantial amount of health care funding, it's reasonable to say there are other ways that health care funding could be delivered to the provinces for these things. I don't think he's way outside the scope of what's reasonable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Blaikie, thank you for that, and that is why I did pass the floor over to our official, Mr. Countryman.

I believe he said that he did not have the answer as an official. I don't know if Mr. Countryman is saying it is on the political side.

Is that what you were acknowledging?

I'll let Mr. Countryman speak for himself.

[Galen Countryman]

I would say that the question of whether to provide further funding through the Canada health transfer would be a political decision for the government to make.

I would note that, in remarks previously made by the Prime Minister, he is prepared to have a discussion with premiers to that effect once the pandemic is over—or words to that effect.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Okay. There are a couple of things.

Mr. Chair, with all due respect, I don't think you need to answer the question for the witness. Obviously my question was whether it was ever discussed.

When the Government of Canada is about to spend $70 billion on economic stimulus, when, in pertaining to this bill, they're going to spend $70 billion when economists are telling them not to, when they've already printed too much money and filled the system full of cash, when every premier in Canada is calling for an increase to Canada health transfers, it's a very good question to determine at least whether that was discussed.

I was looking for a yes or a no. I didn't get it, which makes me think either it wasn't discussed, or if it was, nobody wants to admit that it was discussed and then excluded.

If you're going to spend $70 billion, that's a lot of tax dollars that we never learn where it's coming from in these rooms, but it's important for the people in the committee to ascertain what was excluded. If you're going to spend $70 billion, clearly there were things discussed that didn't get included in this bill.

It would be interesting to know if one of those things was something that every premier, from every province and territory in this country, is begging the government for on the front page every other day.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

It's just a quick thing. I think these are important questions, but they're not for our officials. I think our Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance can come and answer that question, but our officials aren't going to answer a political question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Okay. The time is up.

I don't know if the officials want to just jump in for five seconds. It's up to the officials. Then we're going to move to the Liberals and MP MacDonald.

[Galen Countryman]

I don't have anything to add.

Thank you.