Evidence of meeting #21 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre Roger
Sophie Amberg  Director, Review and Analysis Division, Charities Directorate, Canada Revenue Agency
Isabelle Jacques  Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Manuel Dussault  Senior Director, Framework Policy, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Samantha Maislin Dickson  Assistant Deputy Minister, Public Safety, Defence and Immigration Portfolio, Department of Justice
Julien Brazeau  Director General, Financial Crimes and Security Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

4:30 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Isabelle Jacques

No, the FINTRAC legislation does not allow for the freezing, but certainly on an ongoing basis, as you may know, when police forces are doing investigations when illegal activities are taking place, they deal with financial institutions and accounts are frozen on an ongoing basis if there are irregularities, fraud, theft.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Okay, on perhaps a finer point, there are other avenues through which individuals may have their accounts frozen, correct?

4:30 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Isabelle Jacques

Currently, yes, that is correct. There are other avenues, but not ones that would cover the specific events that required the Emergencies Act to be activated.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

The provincial government had accounts frozen without using the emergency measures act.

Is it the judicial opinion of the individuals here or the government that there was no other way to freeze an individual's account other than invoking the Emergencies Act?

4:30 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Isabelle Jacques

I will leave Samantha to speak to the legal views, but certainly it's not that we, the federal government, thought there were no other avenues to freeze accounts. There were no other avenues to freeze the accounts in view of the current illegal blockades that were ongoing and the fact that we had to take extreme measures to freeze the accounts basically to discourage people from funding illegal activities.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

That's an interesting answer. I hope we'll get some clarity on that. I suspect we will. One of the issues with the Emergencies Act is that there are no other avenues the government could have taken, so that's an interesting response.

I will yield my time to my colleague, Mr. Lawrence, for the remainder.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Thank you very much.

I want to get some clarity so that Canadians can understand. I can't be the only MP—in fact, I know in our caucus it's almost been throughout—who has received many phone calls and emails from very concerned and scared Canadians. If we can provide some clarity....

You've already filled in some spaces, and I want to fill in the rest. If in fact someone supported the convoy or they were present at the protest from February 15 to February 22, there is a possibility that their account could be frozen, but if they provided financial support or any other type of support or were even present at the protest in Ottawa before the 15th, their bank accounts shouldn't be frozen. Is that correct?

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Isabelle Jacques

Prior to February 15, they should not have been frozen. That is correct.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

It's really just individuals who supported or were present in the Ottawa protest between February 15 and February 22 who should be concerned.

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Isabelle Jacques

Those were the ones who were involved in those activities that are prohibited by section 2 of the regulation, That is correct.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Because we've stopped freezing bank accounts, anyone whose account has not been frozen, we can say that it will not be. Is that correct?

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Isabelle Jacques

It will not be frozen to the extent that they do not start funding other illegal activities that are prohibited by sections 2 to 5 of the emergency measures regulations.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

To your knowledge, are there any of those activities going on right now?

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Isabelle Jacques

Not to my knowledge, but I believe the RCMP would be better placed than me to have that information. I do not.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

I just want to follow up on Mr. Blaikie's line of questioning.

Is there anything stopping you from asking the financial institutions to send notices out to people who have had their accounts frozen under the Emergencies Act? I don't believe there is. I'm a lawyer. I don't think there's anything stopping you from asking them.

I can't tell you how many Canadians there are like the 80-year-old gentleman who called me and said “I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to eat tomorrow, because my account might be frozen because I gave 50 bucks to the convoy when it was legal.”

They're terrified out there. There has to be something you and your department can do to alleviate this fear.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Please provide a very short answer.

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Isabelle Jacques

It's certainly something that we should consider. Thank you for offering that suggestion.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, MP Lawrence. That's time.

We are moving to the Liberals and MP Dzerowicz for five minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I thank all the witnesses for their longevity and for being so patient in answering all of our questions.

I want to just dispel a couple of things, because I think it's important.

I believe one of my Conservative colleagues earlier said there was “a complete suspension of civil liberties”. I just want to make sure everybody is very clear that the enactment of the Emergencies Act requires that the actions undertaken under our public order emergency be charter-compliant every step of the way, and we have had that confirmed at this meeting.

There has also been the notion—and I think Mr. Lawrence was a little on this track—that little old ladies and the general public are being impacted in terms of their accounts being frozen. Therefore, I just want to make sure that I read into the record something from an article in the Globe and Mail. It reads:

The RCMP, banking sector and federal government said Monday that account-freezing powers bestowed under the Emergencies Act to help authorities deal with convoy protests do not affect donors to the protests, despite

—unsubstantiated—

claims by a Conservative MP that a constituent had her bank account frozen over a $50 contribution. “At no time, did we provide a list of donors to Financial Institutions,” the RCMP said in a statement Monday. The agency said while it had sent financial institutions a list of accounts to monitor and freeze, those accounts belonged to “individuals and companies suspected of involvement in illegal acts,” such as “influencers in the illegal protest in Ottawa” and vehicle owners and drivers “who did not want to leave the area impacted by the protest.”

I just want to make sure that we have that on record. I do not want anybody out there to be terrified that their accounts are about to be frozen or that there are all these Canadians who have their accounts frozen willy-nilly. It's important to put that on the record.

I also think it's important to state the following. This is from a speech by our Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance. She had indicated:

Federal government institutions will have a new broad authority to share relevant information with banks and other financial service providers to ensure that we can all work together to put a stop to the funding of these illegal blockades. This is about following the money. This is about stopping the financing of these illegal blockades. We are today serving notice

She says “the Canadian economy needs them”—them being all those who were involved in the blockade—“to be doing legitimate work, not to be illegally making us all poorer.”

We also heard excellent responses from Ms. Jacques today who clarified that we did have gaps in terms of the fact that FINTRAC and the RCMP were not able to collect data from both the crowdfunding platforms as well as the cryptocurrencies.

We have also indicated that we're going to be introducing legislation to make this permanent. We've also heard that the federal government is not personally collecting the data. It is that we've enabled that information to actually go directly to financial institutions and the RCMP for them to take actions.

I just want to make sure that we put that all on record. It's important for us all to be clear about where we are at.

My first question actually falls along the lines of Mr. Fragiskatos' after his soliloquy when he talked about confirming the compliance of the Emergencies Act and for the public order emergency to be compliant with the charter.

Could I have Ms. Dickson talk to the other key difference, which is that there are accountability measures that the Emergencies Act imposes, and maybe describe some of these, please?

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Public Safety, Defence and Immigration Portfolio, Department of Justice

Samantha Maislin Dickson

Absolutely. Thank you very much.

Specifically, with respect to the orders and regulations themselves, the Emergencies Act provides that members of both Houses of Parliament can actually move motions forward. To the extent there was a desire to see amendments made, that is a possibility enabled by the act.

Further, there's a parliamentary review committee that is established, and has some timelines to do certain things. I won't take up your time with the specifics. It is set out in section 62 of the Emergencies Act.

Finally, when the emergency is revoked or has expired, there is an inquiry that needs to be put in place to look into the circumstances that led to the emergency being declared and the response.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, MP Dzerowicz. Your time is up.

We are now moving to the Bloc and Monsieur Ste-Marie for two and a half minutes.

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are for the Department of Justice official, Maislin Dickson.

We have regular legislation, such as the Criminal Code and the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act, which prohibit financial fraud, the laundering of ill‑gotten gains or the funding of criminal activity.

In your opinion, can regular legislation prevent the direct or indirect funding of illegal activity?

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Public Safety, Defence and Immigration Portfolio, Department of Justice

Samantha Maislin Dickson

The recently implemented emergency measures regulations clarified the meaning of an unlawful assembly that would be considered criminal. Once this clarification was provided, the connection to the related offences was made very clear to Canadians.

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

You're telling me that all the rules in place, from municipal bylaws to the Criminal Code to traffic regulations, didn't treat the occupation or siege in Ottawa as a criminal activity. Is that right?

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Public Safety, Defence and Immigration Portfolio, Department of Justice

Samantha Maislin Dickson

I'm sorry, but that's not what I said. I said that the very clearly defined criteria in section 2 of these regulations specified what would be considered an unlawful assembly.