Finance Committee on March 7th, 2022

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

If I understood correctly, just knowing that their accounts might be frozen encouraged people to go home and also encouraged people to stay home and not come back—those who might have participated initially in any of the blockades.

Did I understand that correctly?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

Yes.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

Just so I can connect the dots for people in my riding and other Canadians who might be listening, a lot of the money came in through crowdfunding platforms. We're talking about freezing accounts. I'm assuming—and please correct me if I'm wrong—that the way people who were part of the occupation or part of the blockades were able to access some of these funds is that they were transferred from the crowdfunding platform, where they collected the money, into a bank account. Do I understand that correctly?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

I think you're.... The focus of enforcing these emergency measures was strictly to block the funds of people who were identified. The larger investigation as to where the money came from and how it was distributed I think is outside the scope of the emergency measures. It's more in line with the overall criminal investigation.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Okay. If I understood you correctly, you're kind of saying that the crowdfunding platforms collected the money, but where the RCMP was able to play or do something is once it got into an account. When there was money into an account that could be attributed to the Ottawa occupation or the blockades, that's where the RCMP was able to collect the data and then distribute that to financial institutions.

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

It's important to understand that the focus of the RCMP, the intelligence, came from the trucks and the people who were present in Ottawa. It wasn't the focus to start with donors or anybody who had received money. The point of using these tools was to make sure that people left downtown Ottawa as peacefully as possible, so we concentrated our efforts in identifying who was present in the downtown area, and this is the information that we ended up sharing with the financial institutions.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Okay.

For my last question, I know there were certain gaps in terms of what the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act could actually cover in terms of activities. Can you give us an idea of what the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act did allow for and what gaps the invocation of the Emergencies Act addressed?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Could we have a short answer, please?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

The short answer is that it made crowdfunding platforms have the obligation to report any payments to FINTRAC, which were not covered before.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Thank you, MP Dzerowicz.

We are moving to the Bloc and MP Ste-Marie for six minutes.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Arcand and Mr. Beaudoin, thank you for appearing before the committee this afternoon.

I would also like to thank you and your colleagues from the RCMP and the other police forces involved for the joint operation you conducted. It was all very calm and orderly, which was truly impressive.

Many parliamentarians were brought to Parliament in your vehicles by your police officers. We were able to follow the whole operation from inside, from where we saw most of the trucks eventually leave on their own. Having seen other protests in the past, I can tell you that this one ended very peacefully. I thank you and take my hat off to you.

When the government decided to invoke the Emergencies Act and issue the three orders that accompanied it, what happened on your end? Did the government consult you? Did the RCMP ask the government to invoke the act? Did you advise the government on elements of the act or on what should be in the orders?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

Consultations were held, and we made recommendations on certain points. However, the RCMP does not ask for the act to be invoked; the RCMP only enforces it. When the Emergencies Act was put in place, the RCMP simply enforced the measures prescribed.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you very much.

On the subject of consultations regarding financial measures, was it the RCMP who indicated to the government that freezing bank accounts could be an effective measure to encourage protesters to leave?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

The answer is no.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

How did the relationship between the RCMP and the government work on a daily basis? Did each department contact you, or was there a government spokesperson who consolidated aspects of the various departments that communicated with you? How did communication on those various aspects happen on a day-to-day basis between the RCMP and the government?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

The conversations with the government took place at various levels. The government communicated with the commissioner and with me through a number of government programs.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

Is the RCMP in the habit of working with banks and financial institutions? We heard that the RCMP provided a list of names to the banks and financial institutions. How did that work?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

The RCMP works with financial institutions on a regular basis. Of course, with the emergency measures being put in place, financial institutions and police communicated more.

When the Emergencies Act was invoked, the RCMP offered to serve as the point of contact with financial institutions, on behalf of Ontario Provincial Police and the Ottawa Police Service, and that's what we did. The information on the individuals that we provided to the banks was based on information from the Ontario Provincial Police and Ottawa police, as well as our own information.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

When the finance officials appeared before the committee, we found out that the department had not provided the banks with any written guidance on how to deal with the accounts in question. For instance, they didn't receive any guidance on how to handle a joint account or an account from which child or spousal support payments were being made.

Can you tell us whether the RCMP had dealings with financial institutions or the government in relation to the details of the oral communications provided to the financial institutions or the details for freezing accounts?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

We did not have any discussions on the methods the banks would use to freeze and manage the accounts in question. We discussed how the information would be communicated to the banks, which were responsible for freezing the accounts.

We are unaware of whether the financial institutions and the finance department had any discussions.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Basically, if those issues did come up, it would have been during the discussions between the financial institutions and the finance department. They weren't raised with you.

Broadly speaking, financial crime seems to be booming. The situation is ever-changing. Would you say the RCMP has enough funding and resources to combat all the types of financial crime out there?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

The RCMP works very closely with the private sector and other law enforcement agencies. The regime helps us make headway as well. Is the RCMP underfunded and understaffed? On the whole, the RCMP has a significant problem when it comes to resources.

However, we use the resources we have to combat organized crime. As far as money laundering is concerned, we work closely with the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada and other sectors.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

I see the chair is about to interrupt me because he doesn't like when I get on this topic.

I'm kidding. I'm out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

No, of course, ask all the questions you want to.

Thank you, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

We are moving to the NDP and MP Blaikie for six minutes.