Finance Committee on May 5th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 42 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting on the subject matter of Bill C-19, an act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on April 7, 2022 and other measures.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely, using the Zoom application. Per the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on March 10th, 2022, all those attending the meeting in person must wear a mask, except for members who are at their place during proceedings.

I'd like to take a few moments to make comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone and please mute it when you're not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of the floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I would remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can, and we appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

Finally, I request that members and witnesses mutually treat each other with respect and decorum.

I would now like to welcome today's witnesses from the finance department. Please note that today's witnesses are here to speak about part 5 of the bill.

Today we have representatives from the Canada Border Services Agency; Canada Revenue Agency; Correctional Service of Canada; Department of Citizenship and Immigration; Department of Employment and Social Development; Department of Finance; Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development; Department of Indigenous Services; Department of Industry; Department of Justice; Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions; Privy Council Office and Treasury Board Secretariat.

Members, I will be suspending the meeting at approximately 5 o'clock or so to go in camera. It takes about five to ten minutes to make that switch.

Since we don't have opening remarks by any of our officials today, we are going to move right into rounds of questions. For the first round, we'll start with the Conservatives, who are up for six minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Chambers.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate all the officials joining us again today. I have some questions. I'll start with the Competition Act changes that are proposed in the BIA.

I have a couple of questions on the process and then some technical ones. With respect to the process, were the Canadian Bar Association or other people consulted on some of the changes prior to these changes being included in the BIA?

Okay. We'll go to the next question. Is there—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Ms. Miller, do you want to answer? You have to unmute yourself.

[Jennifer Miller, Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I was waiting for acknowledgement.

I can speak to these amendments on behalf of the Department of Innovation, Science and Economic Development. The amendments that were proposed as part of the budget implementation act are the product of ongoing policy dialogue with stakeholders and the Competition Bureau dating back several years, and the Bar Association is included in those conversations. They're also informed by public stakeholder positions, such as those provided to parliamentary committee hearings and the ongoing policy dialogue on this important topic in the public sphere.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much. I respect that there were some previous consultations.

Is there a plan for consultations either on these changes or on future proposed changes in the near future?

[Jennifer Miller]

May I answer, Mr. Chair?

Yes, Minister Champagne has signalled his intent to proceed with further consideration of changes to the Competition Act, as per the commitments in his mandate letter from the Prime Minister. There will definitely be engagement with stakeholders and consultation as part of that process in the coming months.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I have a couple of technical questions on some of the changes. On wage fixing, is it the view of the government that this would apply to ride-sharing services like Uber? Would they be considered captured under this new proposed rule, or is that part of the consultation that will be settled?

[Jennifer Miller]

As the Competition Act is a law of general application, it does not typically distinguish between specific business models or types of industry. The law applies broadly across the entire economy. In the enforcement of that act, if cases come forward, the Competition Bureau considers them in light of the general provisions and makes its determinations in the enforcements in that way.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you.

In the situation where there's a relationship between a franchisee and franchisor, who would be the employer: the ultimate parent franchisor or the franchisee?

[Jennifer Miller]

I would say that it depends on the specifics of an individual case and on the business model of the participants in the case that was being brought forward at that time. It would be very case specific.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much.

With respect to some of the changes or amendments to section 79 involving privacy, was the Privacy Commissioner consulted before these changes were proposed?

[Jennifer Miller]

Mr. Chair, the amendments, as I indicated, have been informed by inputs across a variety of different avenues and comments have definitely been made by a variety of people to parliamentary committees, or in the public sphere, or within an ongoing engagement between policy-makers and the stakeholder in question. Comments that the Privacy Commissioner would have made in those context would have been taken into account, but there was not a specific consultation directly with the Privacy Commissioner on that specific amendment.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much for that clear answer.

Mr. Chair, there are some other questions that I may table later, with the pleasure of the committee or your indulgence.

I do note that we have some Treasury Board officials here, and with my remaining time I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate a question that was asked the other day. I suspect that it has maybe not been answered yet. As part of my duty on this committee, I'm trying to understand the number of individuals the government is planning to hire, both gross hires and the net full-time equivalent impacts of the budget measures through the forecast. This is important because we are in the tightest labour market in a generation and people are concerned about wage-price pressures. If the federal government is intending to hire at the existing rates it has been doing over the last five years, it will create significant challenges for those in the private sector trying to access labour. If there's an answer to that question, I would love to have that now, but would appreciate an answer in writing if it's not available today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Did the Treasury Board capture that?

Do we have a representative here?

[John Millons, Director of Policy, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Yes, we've captured the question and we'll transmit it to our colleagues.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you very much.

That's your time, Mr. Chambers.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We're moving over to the Liberals with MP MacDonald for six minutes.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

I just want to continue on with regard to the Competition Act. I just have a quick question, maybe back to Ms. Miller, and hopefully this wasn't asked previously. Were there any situations or cases that spurred the need for these changes?

[Jennifer Miller]

With respect to specific cases that are under way, because the Competition Bureau is an independent law enforcement agency that operates with some fairly strict obligations with respect to confidentiality, I of course would not be in a position to speak to any of those. However, certainly the department and our colleagues at the Competition Bureau do follow trends in the marketplace, trends in business activity, and of course the public information on the cases that the bureau publishes very closely, and use that to inform any policy options for Parliament's consideration.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I'm going to move to the finance department.

To make payments to provinces to address transit shortfalls and improve housing supply and affordability, will this money need to be requested, or are there criteria to determine when it would come into effect? It's division 4 in part 5.

[Galen Countryman, Director General, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

There are terms and conditions attached to the funding as part of the bill. The funding could be spent based on the terms and conditions that the Minister deems appropriate. The minister has to communicate with provinces and territories, and the provincial and territorial governments must match the federal contribution. They have to allocate that funding within the jurisdiction of municipalities or regional transit agencies based on transit ridership, with flexibility for jurisdictions with federal public transit, or to allocate according to the needs; put funding towards transit operating shortfalls, transit capital, or housing; and provinces and territories must agree to accelerate their efforts to improve housing supply in collaboration with municipalities.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you.

Mr. Countryman, I come from a fairly rural province, Prince Edward Island. I'm trying to envision how you differentiate between rural communities compared with larger urban centres in this funding.

[Galen Countryman]

Again, there was flexibility for jurisdictions such as Prince Edward Island and others where there are not large transit systems.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

The poor sound quality prevents the interpreter from doing her job properly.