Finance Committee on May 17th, 2022

[Jasmin Guénette]

Approximately 70 per cent of the members we represent have businesses with about 12 to 15 employees. Our members have retail, construction, food services and accommodation businesses, among other types. Most of them are small businesses.

Regarding the green transition or energy transition, we have to make sure that this transition doesn't add to operating costs for a very large number of small businesses when they have just come through two extremely tough years. A very large number of businesses are having a lot of trouble generating the revenue that is needed to have a viable business. Only 40 per cent of Canadian small businesses are seeing normal sales, while over 60 per cent of them have accumulated debts in connection with the COVID-19 pandemic.

I appreciate your question, and issues relating to the green transition, among other things, are very important for our society. However, our members' priority, at this point, is really everything involved in issues relating to operating expenses and the labour shortage. In fact, that is the perspective we are coming from in this presentation to you today.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. Chatel.

We'll now go to the Bloc for the final questions of this session.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to start by making a comment to committee members in connection with Mr. Laliberté's testimony. I will then have a question for Terry Beech in his role as parliamentary secretary, and so as a representative of the government.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Laliberté.

Your points are extremely clear. I agree with you. I think division 32 has to be separated from Bill C‑19 to be sure it can be studied properly.

If the government agreed to this proposal, that would be ideal. In fact, I'm going to ask Mr. Beech a question about that. Of course, the government might not accept it.

We have already asked that the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities study that division.

We would need to make sure that we can hold the necessary consultations and examine all the amendments relating to it. If that committee isn't able to do that, the Standing Committee on Finance will have to take it on. I will then ask that the committee take the time needed to do a thorough study of division 32 in its entirety.

As the representative of the government, can Mr. Beech tell us now whether the government would be open to the idea of removing division 32 from Bill C‑19 and making it a different bill?

If he doesn't have an answer to give us, can he consult his government colleagues and give us one?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I'll inform MP Ste-Marie that we have not heard from HUMA yet.

I don't know if MP Beech, through the chair....

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm happy to make comments, the first being that this isn't question time for the parliamentary secretary, but I appreciate Gabriel's asking.

The committee is an independent body able to make its own decisions for study. Since you're giving a heads-up, something like this will probably need more time for consideration than the eight minutes left in this meeting. It's probably something appropriate during clause-by-clause study.

Maybe I'll leave it at that and let Gabriel continue his questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I thank Mr. Beech for his response.

I'd like to make sure that when he can, he will tell us the government's position, that is, whether it would be prepared to remove division 32 from Bill C‑19 and make it a different bill.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Are those all your questions, MP Ste-Marie? Yes.

Okay. We will now move to the NDP. This will be the final questioner.

MP Blaikie, you have a little more than four minutes.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I want to come back to Mr. Laliberté on the question of the EI appeal board.

You spoke about the tension that can develop between full-time staff and part-time staff who are hearing appeals. I wonder if you wanted to share with the committee some thoughts on how the folks on those appeal boards are selected, what's contemplated in the legislation and what you think ought to be the case.

[Pierre Laliberté]

There's no mechanism specified in the legislation. The intent was that the selection would be managed through the respective offices of the commissioner for employers and the commissioner for workers. This is done through a process whereby people could individually apply and would need to get sponsorship from employer, labour or community organizations that would vet their skills in the world of appeals, so to speak, and whether they are in good standing with their community. That was discussed informally at the conceptual stage.

As you will see, that aspect is not dealt with in the bill. I don't know, ultimately, what that would mean. Currently, when it comes to the Social Security Tribunal, we have a kind of rubber-stamp say on the people selected. In other words, the civil service makes the determination, then comes up with a list of eight people—if there are eight positions open—and asks us to make a decision with essentially no more perspective than that. We don't want that, for reasons that are pretty obvious.

That would be my answer to the question.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

[Pierre Laliberté]

Thanks.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

MP Ste-Marie, just before we start our last round, I did say four minutes. You both used about two and a half minutes each. I don't know if you had any other questions or if you didn't hear me at the start of the round.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

What I would like to do is ask the witnesses whether they have a closing comment for us in a few minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

To any of the witnesses, is there a question that you have not been asked that you would like to answer?

[Karl Blackburn]

If I may, I'll reiterate the main points I made. You have heard comments from our two organizations, mainly. What is central to the priorities is the labour shortage that really has major consequences for our economy.

Even though the economic recovery exists, even though it is being felt in many places in Canada, it is not as strong as it could be.

I would therefore urge parliamentarians from all political parties to give priority to measures that will bring lasting solutions to the labour shortage in Canada in the short, medium and long term.

Unfortunately, that shortage creates a risk for Canada, the risk that other countries will get ahead of us. If Canada can't manage to be competitive because of the labour shortage, then it will be an uphill climb after that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We have a little more time. Is there any other witness?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

I'll just say in addition that the pandemic's impacts are still here; it's not over for many small businesses, so you need to make sure that when policy is being discussed or created, that lens is still there about what impact this will have on small companies. Please don't do any more harm to small companies. They just can't absorb any more. Those would be my closing remarks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I saw Monsieur Laliberté's hand up.

[Pierre Laliberté]

I just want to address one point I was not addressed about, and it's that the budget, unfortunately, wasn't very good for the EI fund.

In the last fiscal year, we had a large infusion of money, $35 billion, from general revenues. Now our EI fund will be close to $30 billion in the hole. Many of the temporary measures, such as the rate freeze that I think people appreciated, have created this red ink, and it's really unfortunate that this was not addressed, because now, as was said earlier, this is a payroll tax that is a greater burden on some than it is on others.

Basically, I'm just flagging that the whole issue of EI financing might prove to be an issue in the medium term.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Laliberté.

I want to say again, witnesses, that you were excellent. You answered many questions and are going to provide the members with some of the answers they asked for that maybe you're going to be able to get some information on.

On behalf of the members of the committee, the clerk, the analyst.... Again I'll say that the clerk and others worked very hard to get you here today. I know it was kind of a last-minute thing, so thank you. You were very well prepared to answer all of our questions, so thank you very much on behalf of our committee. We really appreciate it.

Members, we will adjourn.