Finance Committee on May 26th, 2022

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Would it surprise you to learn that there was no economic impact assessment done at either the political or the government level? The only economic impact analysis we have is one that we see from your industry association, and then also what was just released this morning from a Parliamentary Budget Officer report.

Does it surprise you that there wasn't anything done on the government side?

[Sara Anghel]

It would have been very much appreciated had there been some more thought put into it. I realize these things go how they go. It was surprising that there wasn't anything done. That's why our industry stepped up in an effort to assist the government and commissioned work with Dr. Mintz to have that study so we would have some data to provide to them to help guide them through the situation.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

You listed a few other countries that have implemented a similar version of the tax, but have since walked away from it. Do you know why these countries have done that?

[Sara Anghel]

In every case, once the tax was implemented, it didn't take very long before they saw job losses, the industry decreasing and people even using their boats. In the case of Italy, it was revenue lost to the government and people taking their vessels outside of the country. Most importantly, with our neighbours to the south of us, the U.S., we saw boat manufacturing facilities with 1,200 jobs go down to having 70 jobs. It was quickly seen that it was a flawed approach.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Wow.

If you're in a border community, as many Canadians are—in fact, many Canadians live within a short distance of a border—or if you're lucky enough to live in a community like mine, you can get to the United States by water quite easily. How easy would it be to keep a vessel across the border and either bring it into Canada or leave it in the U.S. for recreation?

[Sara Anghel]

It would be extremely easy, as you've pointed out. Whether it's through the Great Lakes, from Vancouver to Seattle or on the east coast and everything in between, that is what we're hearing. These vessels will be registered and sold in the United States. They will potentially come up to Canada, but potentially not, because it may be too much effort to do so.

We'll lose the ripple effect of tourism dollar spending and we'll see a complete loss in revenue. Those vessels not being sold will have an economic impact in Canada.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

When we talk about lost sales, how does that filter through? Lost sales mean potential cutbacks at a manufacturing facility and potential knock-on effects at a dealer, as an example, in sales, but what other kinds of impacts could we expect? How would this work?

[Sara Anghel]

That's the start of it at the manufacturing level, or what's left of it in Canada, which we should be protecting and nurturing.

The dealer that is selling the U.S.-made or European-made boat, or whatever the case may be, will see sales drop, because people will choose to spend their discretionary money elsewhere. The effects will continue to ripple through to the marina and the repair shops, because now there will be fewer vessels in the country to service and take care of. Every vessel is a microeconomy in and of itself, a continued layer of things that stimulate the economy.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much for being here today.

In my remaining minute, I would like to bring in the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters.

Mr. Poirier, you've heard some of this discussion. You also represent manufacturers of aircraft and automobiles. How do you think this tax is going to impact manufacturing? Are we going to have more manufacturing activity or less after this tax comes into effect?

[Matt Poirier]

It's certainly not good. To echo everything that Ms. Anghel said, it's for those same reasons. She's looking at the marine sector, and we have members there. However, it will impact the aerospace and automotive sectors and all of the supply chain partners that are part of that. These are little companies that make all those parts that feed into those products.

It's a bad idea, full stop. History has shown that these measures do not bring in the revenue that they always hope for, which is why I referred to it as a siren song.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much. Mr. Chair, I know we want to keep on time, so I'll go back to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Chambers.

Members, before we go to the Liberals for their six minutes with MP Baker, you may have questions for Mr. Mangin and Philanthropic Foundations Canada. Please submit those in writing. We will get them to Mr. Mangin for answers and then distribute those to members with translation. As well, opening remarks from Mr. Mangin will be translated and sent out to members.

Now we'll go to the Liberals and MP Baker for six minutes.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

I would like to start my questions with Ms. Tomkins.

In your opening remarks, you talked about the need for the federal government to work with the provinces and territories on the implementation of dental care. You had some strong views as to how that should or shouldn't be done.

When I think about analogies to this, I think about child care. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the manner in which child care agreements were reached recently. Do you support that type of model for the implementation of national dental care?

[Dr. Lynn Tomkins]

Certainly we strongly recommend that the federal government implement this program through funding the existing provincial and territorial programs, which by and large operate well. They do reach the underserved populations, but for them it's a matter of funding. The federal contribution to the provincial programs has been almost non-existent. These programs are functioning well. They are delivering care to the populations that they are designed to reach, but they do need to be funded, and that has been a long-standing advocacy position for us, even before this announcement. The federal government needed to do that.

I don't know all the nitty-gritty details of what you did in working out the agreements with respect to child care, but it seemed that those agreements brought people together on areas of agreement, respected jurisdictional differences and still were able to get the funding to the programs that needed it the most, so insofar as that would work for us, I think that would be a good model.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That's great. Thank you for that.

In terms of the child care agreements, without getting into the nitty-gritty here, what was done there, in my view, was that the government came to agreements with the provinces as to how they would fund that programming in a collaborative way. We came to a separate agreement with each of the provinces and territories and ensured that it was funded equitably across the country while ensuring that the provinces were on board.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, but in your opening remarks I did hear that you wanted to make sure some of those goals were achieved in any kind of national dental care plan. That's kind of why I asked you about the child care. I appreciate that.

[Dr. Lynn Tomkins]

May I add a comment?

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Sure, absolutely.

[Dr. Lynn Tomkins]

I think the whole aspect of collaboration is extremely important, because I think we in dentistry view this as a very exciting opportunity. You have children in pain, disabled people who cannot smile and seniors who can't eat, so I think that if we keep in mind the overall goal of wanting to see the funding go into delivering care for those who need it the most and we operate in the spirit of collaboration and keep the bigger picture in mind, we will achieve a great outcome. It's a game-changer for us.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That's great. I appreciate that, Ms. Tomkins.

I have a follow-up question for you. I used to be a member of the provincial Parliament in Ontario, so I'm familiar with the provincial side of this and now the federal side. One of the things on which people used to approach me and meet with me at my constituency office in Etobicoke Centre was their concerns about the lack of dental care for those vulnerable folks you just spoke about.

I think sometimes we think about dental care as being sort of hived off from the broader health care system or health care needs of Canadians, and I'm wondering if you could speak to the other health impacts of poor dental health. What is that impact and what kind of strain does it put on the rest of the health care system when poor oral or dental health exists?

[Dr. Lynn Tomkins]

I think a very good example would be a person who is unable to access dental care for an immediate problem, such as a toothache. They have an infected tooth that either needs to have a root canal treatment or it needs to be taken out. If they're not able to get to a dentist and receive the care they need, they end up in the emergency ward of the local hospital. In that appointment, they're seen and assessed, but the definitive treatment is not rendered. There are very few hospitals that have dental departments in them. As a result, that person is given a prescription for an antibiotic, sort of on speculation, whether or not they actually need it, but they're given it just in case. Now we have the potential overuse of antibiotics, which has a whole lot of other implications for health. As well, they're given a prescription for, usually, very strong painkillers, such as an opioid.

The root of the problem has actually not been addressed. That visit to the health system costs the provincial health system anywhere from $500 to $700 and still they did not get the treatment that would have taken care of the problem, which in a dental office would probably have cost less than half of that. That would be a very direct example of an emergency situation.

I'm on staff at the University of Toronto faculty of dentistry. I teach in emergency and oral diagnosis, so we see people with an awful lot of chronic conditions—diabetes, cardiovascular diseases, rheumatoid arthritis and the inflammatory effects of gum disease—what we call periodontal disease—which is actually a disease of bone that has significant effects on the inflammatory processes in the human body, so there are lots of implications. Whatever happens in the mouth is either a sign of something happening in the body or the result of something happening in the body and/or the treatment of it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. Tomkins and MP Baker.

Now we will have questions from the Bloc. Monsieur Garon, you have six minutes, please.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair

All my questions will be for Mr. Lasnier and Ms. St‑Georges. I'll leave it to them to decide who responds.

We have outstanding businesses in my riding, such as Cidrerie Lacroix and Intermiel, which are processors. Somewhat like you, they're surprised to see this new tax come out of nowhere as a result of the settlement of a trade dispute with Australia essentially concerning the wine industry.

Why do you think this measure is being applied so broadly, particularly to goods that weren't involved in the dispute?

[Marc-Antoine Lasnier]

Our understanding is that it's definitely related to Canada's regulation of the wine industry. Cider is considered a wine at the federal level, as are mead, maple-based beverages and berry-based drinks.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

So I understand that apples are classified in the same category as grapes under federal regulations, which have been in force for some time. Your response shows just how obsolete those regulations are.

I'm quite familiar with these businesses. There's a lot of talk about processing and value-added products, and people say our resources must be processed in order to create employment and wealth, and that's exactly what these businesses do.

Do you know if the federal government did a study to assess the impact of this new tax before so quickly introducing the measures we now see in Bill C‑19?

[Marc-Antoine Lasnier]

I couldn't tell you whether the government has done in an impact study. However, Cider Canada was established very recently, when this new tax was introduced, and it conducted a study that showed the tax might result in the loss of 4,000 of the 9,000 jobs associated with the sector and result in losses totalling $500 million across Canada.