Evidence of meeting #57 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Seth Klein  Team Lead, Climate Emergency Unit
Steven Staples  National Director of Policy and Advocacy, Canadian Health Coalition
Angella MacEwen  Senior Economist, National Services, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Jay Goldberg  Director, Ontario, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
Keith Newman  Economist, Canadian Health Coalition

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

I'm going to call this meeting to order.

Let me begin by saying that it's great to see the entire team and all our colleagues. I hope you had an enjoyable summer and got the chance to be with family and friends and meet with your constituents throughout the summer.

I may be a little biased, but I was just saying to the clerk and others that we're probably the hardest-working committee on the Hill. You should pat yourselves on the back for the number of meetings we had—60-plus meetings—in the last session, and I know we're going to have a very busy session this time.

Welcome to meeting number 57 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting to discuss the current state of fiscal federalism in Canada.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021, members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I will remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as well as we can. We appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

Go ahead, Mr. Beech.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC

I don't want to interrupt anything, but if it's an appropriate time, we have this administrative motion that was put forward by Mr. Baker.

It's within the 48 hours, but I don't think it's controversial. I think it was agreed upon by all of our whips, so I just want to see if there is unanimous consent to pass it. It states:

That the clerk of the committee be authorized to grant access to the committee's digital binder to the offices of the whips of each recognized party.

Apparently, it will make the jobs of the whips a little easier. If there's unanimous consent, that's great. If not, we can just wait for the 48 hours.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

I'm looking to the members.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

No, there is no unanimous consent, Mr. Chair.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

We do not have unanimous consent.

Members, I'd now like to welcome our witness for the first hour. We have with us, from Climate Emergency Unit, the team lead, Mr. Seth Klein, who now will give us his opening remarks.

4:30 p.m.

Seth Klein Team Lead, Climate Emergency Unit

Thank you, Chair.

Good afternoon, honourable members. Thank you so much for this invitation.

I'm delighted to have this opportunity to share a new idea with you, a proposal for a new federal institution that, I believe, speaks to the challenges of fiscal federalism in the context of the climate crisis and the urgent need to transition our economy.

I am joining you from the unceded territories of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh nations, otherwise known as Vancouver.

As noted, I am the team lead with the Climate Emergency Unit. I'm also the author of the book A Good War: Mobilizing Canada for the Climate Emergency, which I believe most of you have received, because prior to the last election, an enthusiastic reader from Kingston purchased and delivered a copy to every sitting MP.

My book is structured around the lessons drawn from Canada's historic mobilization during the Second World War—an earlier existential threat—and applies those lessons to the climate emergency. Of course, that earlier mobilization in the face of fascism 80 years ago also had to navigate political differences, the challenges of Canadian Confederation and extraordinary financial challenges, and retool the economy—twice, in fact—and an entire workforce needed to be recruited and trained up. Indeed, as challenging as the transition we now face to tackle the climate crisis is, arguably the task we undertook then was greater.

The comparison is imperfect, of course, but I draw hope and inspiration from this historic reminder as we again face the need to retool our economy, as we again face a civilizational threat, and as the future of our children and grandchildren is once again profoundly put at risk. The World War II story provides a reminder of the extraordinary transformation we're capable of as we rise to this task of our lives.

MP Daniel Blaikie, as I understand, asked for me to be invited here today. In particular, he wanted me to share an idea from the book that speaks to fiscal federalism at this historic moment, and that is the idea for a new federal transfer, which I call “the climate emergency just transition transfer”. I provided the clerk with a short policy brief of the idea yesterday for distribution to you, but it probably still needs to be translated.

I should say that the idea for this new transfer came out of a discussion with the president of the Alberta Federation of Labour, Gil McGowan, when I was interviewing him for my book. He was rightly making the case that Confederation needs to recognize and appreciate that certain regions of Canada—notably the oil-producing provinces—have more heavy lifting to do when it comes to energy and economic transition in the face of the climate crisis. What we believe is an innovative solution emerged from that discussion.

First of all, why do we need a new transfer? At the Climate Emergency Unit, we talk about the six markers of emergency, the key policy indicators that a government is genuinely in emergency mode. The first two of those markers are that, one, it spends what it takes to win and, two, it creates new economic institutions to get the job done. A third marker relevant to this topic is a commitment to leave no one behind.

The problem is that while the federal government has started to take some meaningful climate action, it's not yet hitting those markers. We're still trying to incentivize our way to victory, and I fear it will not work. We are not on a path to bending our GHG emissions curve at the pace and pitch required. We're not spending what it takes to win. We're not creating new transformative institutions to get this job done. And, frustratingly, we have yet to make a compelling counter-offer to the thousands of people understandably anxious about what this transition means for their jobs and their livelihoods.

In the face of the climate emergency, Canada needs to make an audacious and hopeful offer to those workers and communities whose employment and economic security are currently tied to the fossil fuel industry, or, to a lesser extent, the traditional auto industry, or steel and concrete, or the agriculture industry, all of which face substantial transition challenges, and to indigenous communities on the front lines of fossil fuel extraction.

As many have argued, and as is promised by the current federal government, we need a just transition act, but we also need this act to be paired with and backed up by a substantial investment in the jobs of the future so that the promise of just transition isn't a hollow one.

I believe a new federal climate emergency just transition transfer could be specifically linked to funding climate infrastructure projects that would create thousands of jobs, along with training and apprenticeships. Such a transfer could be a mechanism to renew Confederation while rising to the climate crisis.

The transfer should mean that as we embark on this grand transformation, we would be able to say this to thousands who currently work in the fossil fuel industry: “None of you will be out of work. We need your help to meet this moment. Your skills and strength will be deployed in building renewable energy projects, retrofitting buildings, building high-speed rail and public transit, renewing existing infrastructure to make it more resilient to extreme weather, and managing our forest to reduce wildfire risks in the years to come.”

How should this be structured? I believe the new transfer should be at least $25 billion a year, representing about 1% of Canada's GDP. It could and should fund much of the climate infrastructure needed in the coming years. The transfer would speak to a climate confederation conundrum, which is that most of the climate infrastructure needed logically comes under provincial, municipal or indigenous jurisdiction—energy, transit, housing—but it's the federal government that has the greatest capacity to pay.

Two features of the transfer would distinguish it from most other federal transfers. The first is that, unlike most transfers that allocate funding based on population, this transfer could distribute based on a formula linked to recent GHG emissions in each province, but fixed from that point forward so as not to perversely incentivize rising GHGs. Doing so would recognize that jurisdictions like Alberta, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland and Labrador face a more challenging task to transition their local economies. For example, Alberta, which currently produces 38% of Canada's GHG emissions, would receive 38% of the transfer money, quite a lot more than its share of the population.

The second distinguishing feature is that, rather than this transfer money being handed over to provincial governments, the funds would go to newly established just transition agencies, one in each province and territory, jointly governed by the federal government, by provincial, territorial and local governments, and by indigenous nations from each province, and with civil society representatives also on the boards. This would ensure that the transfer money isn't simply absorbed into provincial budgets or used to displace other infrastructure or training funds. It would ensure that the money is used for its intended purpose.

There are already models of joint governance structures like this in Canada, such as the port authorities. It may be that a separate transfer should be made directly to indigenous communities, but the benefit of structuring the transfer around local agencies like this is that it provides assurance that the projects undertaken are sensitive to the realities and needs of each locale. Each province and jurisdiction has a different GHG profile and its own local labour market and training needs. This model would allow for those differences.

There is a long list of worthwhile projects that a transfer like this could fund. The key is that the transfer would represent real dollars for actual transition and new jobs, not vague assurances and the historical false promises of just transition. An innovation like this could be a linchpin within an overall transition plan that is fair and just.

Thanks. I'd be happy to take your questions.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Mr. Klein, thank you for your opening remarks.

We will now move to members' questions. In this first round of questions, each party will have up to six minutes to ask questions. We will start with the Conservatives.

MP Lawrence, you have six minutes.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It is indeed a pleasure to be back here at the finance committee and to be serving the people of Northumberland—Peterborough South once again.

Mr. Klein, I haven't had the privilege of reading your book, but I would assume that, in your theory, one of the actions you would be for would be to end further exploration of oil and gas across our country. Is that a fair characterization, or am I off?

4:40 p.m.

Team Lead, Climate Emergency Unit

Seth Klein

It is a fair characterization.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

That will have a substantial impact on our country. The financial impact of that will be huge. Bay du Nord alone will have a financial impact estimated at $3.5 billion for revenues for the government. You're calling upon the government to make a massive expenditure at a time when our deficit and debt are at record levels. I fail to see how that would be sustainable for Canada and for the government's finances.

4:40 p.m.

Team Lead, Climate Emergency Unit

Seth Klein

I hear in your question a couple of questions: One, how would we actually pay for this? As well, what would it mean if we...? And by the way, I don't envision an immediate turning off of the tap. I imagine a process of winding down an industry over a couple of decades. We have to prepare for that.

I want to invite you to think about what we mean if we assume that demand for our product, whether it's oil or gas, is actually going to continue to expand. I feel it to be, in the end, a fairly cynical assumption, because only one of two things is possible. One possibility is that global demand for our product is going to continue to increase. That will only be true if, as a world, we are going to blow past our Paris obligations and consign our children and grandchildren to a hellscape. The other possibility, and the more likely one, I would say, is that global demand is going to come steeply down. If we don't prepare those workers and those communities for that eventuality with a transfer like this, we are consigning them to a great deal of tumult and disruption.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Thank you very much.

My concern, though, is the here and now. For example, if we look at Newfoundland and Labrador, Bay du Nord is expected to contribute, as I said, $3.5 billion. According to the PBO, if we look to 2046, their debt-to-GDP will be over 100%, and we're going to cut into their revenue. By the way, we're going to promote higher-carbon oil and gas—dictator oil—so by shutting this off we're going to be reducing the amount of revenue that our country is spending, and then you're calling for a massive amount of expenditure.

There isn't an endless amount of money. At the end of the day, all the money comes from the same place, and that's the people of Canada. I just fail to see how your idea of spending these billions of dollars while knee-capping our revenue is at all sustainable.

4:45 p.m.

Team Lead, Climate Emergency Unit

Seth Klein

Well, you mentioned off the top that you hadn't read my book. I invite you to, because I think that, like me, you would find some inspiration there. The task of what we did there in terms of both expenditures and the retooling of the economy and retraining of a workforce.... What we are up against now actually pales in comparison. What we did then actually presaged a couple of decades of the strongest economic performance in Canadian history. I would also say that what I'm talking about now actually pales in comparison to what we did not that long ago in that first year of the pandemic.

You're asking how we're going to pay for this. I think we would pay for this through some combination of tax increases on windfall profits and wealth, but also a role for the Bank of Canada.... In that first year of the pandemic, the Bank of Canada was buying up federal government securities to finance the emergency response to the tune of about $5 billion a week—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

I apologize, but my time is short. I do not mean to be rude, but I have to jump into that. We've seen what the printing of money has done. We've put in place the largest tax increase Canadians have ever seen. That's called the “inflation tax”. We are now seeing food going up at 10%. Printing more money is simply not the answer, but my time is running short.

Could you say whether or not you're in favour of the Bay du Nord project?

4:45 p.m.

Team Lead, Climate Emergency Unit

Seth Klein

I'm categorically against it, and we're going to have to disagree on monetary policy, because I don't think that's the main source of inflation.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Okay. Well, that would be against every single monetary crisis that has ever occurred. Every time inflation has occurred since the Weimar Republic, it has been the responsibility of two things: printing money and poor government management. We've seen both here.

On your idea of just spending money, money comes from somewhere. It comes from the production of goods and services. We can't just simply create that. How we create wealth in this country is not just by printing money—my goodness. It is by creating more goods and services and by letting the power of the free market reign. Your idea that we can just continue to go to the taxpayer and take billions and billions of dollars is not sustainable. In my opinion, it's not the way to fight the very real challenge of climate change.

4:45 p.m.

Team Lead, Climate Emergency Unit

Seth Klein

Let me offer an observation.

First of all, we share a concern about rising food costs, and if climate change continues, that is going to continue to drive increased food costs. Most economists don't believe that this is a demand-side origin inflation, but rather, it's a supply-side origin inflation. One of the drivers is increased energy costs and record oil and gas profits, so why not tax that and put it to work?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

That's your time.

Thank you, MP Lawrence and Mr. Klein.

Now we're moving to the Liberals and MP Dzerowicz for six minutes.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I want to say that it's great to be back and it's nice to see everyone.

Mr. Klein, I want to say a huge thank you to you for being here today. I really appreciate your creative ideas. I think we're going to need all of them in order for us to be able to achieve our Paris accord target to get to net zero by 2050.

I feel an extraordinary urgency to act on climate change. I can tell you that in my riding of Davenport the clear message that comes from people is that they're absolutely worried about inflation and they're worried about the geopolitical crisis around the world, but their very clear direction to me is, “Do not slow down on tackling emissions, on reducing emissions and on moving quickly and urgently towards achieving our Paris accord targets, as well as moving toward net zero.”

In the context of that, I again want to say thanks to you and thanks for your book. I have not had a chance to read it, but I have read some articles on it. Here's my first question for you: Is there a country that maybe serves as a model for the type of climate transfer agency that you're looking to create?

4:45 p.m.

Team Lead, Climate Emergency Unit

Seth Klein

First of all, thank you for your comments and your words. I share your urgency.

I don't see another whole country hitting the six markers of emergency that I describe, although at the municipal level, there are places that are.

There are certainly countries, even within the G7, that are doing substantially better than we are. I would note that the two G7 countries that have made the most progress on reducing emissions are the U.K. and Germany. Much of that has been under conservative governments that haven't made climate into the wedge issue that it's too often made here.

In the case of the U.K., which is the best performer when it comes to lowering emissions, a big piece of that relevant to the work of your committee is the introduction of carbon budgets—going back some years now—where they have rolling five-year carbon budgets that decline over time. There is also an independent oversight committee, which ensures that the whole mechanics of government is meeting that goal.

Think about the work that your committee does now on the fiscal front. Your committee tours the country and solicits input. You meet with provincial governments. We have a Treasury Board that makes sure governments stay within their budgets. We have a Parliamentary Budget Officer who tries to inform all of this with the best evidence-based projections. That's what we need for climate, too, in order to vigorously drive down those emissions.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

Part of your proposal for the just transition transfer is that the money would be fed down to the province. There would be an agency that is created, and it would work with the province to make sure that the dollars are spent the way they're supposed to be spent.

There is provincial leadership across this country that doesn't fully believe in the urgency of climate action. How do we set up a joint body that would produce results?

I'll provide a bit of an idea as well. In the United States, President Biden, in delivering infrastructure dollars, has very much tied it to sustainability and to reducing emissions. I wonder whether your proposal might incorporate something similar.

4:50 p.m.

Team Lead, Climate Emergency Unit

Seth Klein

That's a really good question too.

When we think about those provincial or territorial just transition agencies, it is up to the federal government to figure out how to structure it in the end, but one piece of it could be that the provincial governments are asked to match and ante in. Where they aren't prepared to do that, you would proceed working with indigenous communities and municipalities, in some ways as you already do with some transit projects.

You could also approach this the same way as the federal government did with the child care deals. You could move forward with the transfer one province at a time with those that are ready to move forward with you and, eventually, everyone comes along.

I don't want to underplay that it is hard to find agreement, but—forgive me—because of the nature of my research, I often sound like everyone's weird uncle and go back to the war. In the war, Prime Minister Mackenzie King also dealt with a lot of premiers who often disagreed with him, and many strongly disliked him, yet something remarkable happened in the nature of co-operation across the board and across the political spectrum. That is because that's what ultimately happens when people come to terms with the reality of an emergency.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

We are already increasing training and retraining to the tune of billions to the provinces. Do you not think that is being adequately targeted?

In the last election, we promised $2 billion in a futures fund for Alberta, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland to support local and regional economic diversification. Do you think such a transfer could also be used to help retrain workers?

4:50 p.m.

Team Lead, Climate Emergency Unit

Seth Klein

I definitely think training and apprenticeships should be a part of it, although the bulk of it should be investments in infrastructure itself. More than training and apprenticeship support, what workers want to see are the actual jobs.

In reference to the two points you made.... First of all, the futures fund promise of $3 billion for Alberta, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland is certainly welcome, but I would say it's not nearly enough, as I've laid out. Also, while it's true that Alberta, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland and Labrador need the most support, including for the reasons that the first MP raised, everyone faces transition challenges. We need money for this to go to every province, but in the formula that I'm proposing, a disproportionate share of the money would go to those provinces that face the highest transition challenges.

On the existing training, we should disagree, because—

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Klein.

Now we are moving to the Bloc.

Mr. Ste‑Marie, go ahead.