Evidence of meeting #6 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sector.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON
Okay. That's perfect. Thank you.
I have one other question. One of the key aspects of the legislation as well is the enhancement and extension of the Canada recovery hiring program. Is that program helpful, whether within the hotel association sector or the hardest-hit business recovery program? How important is that program? Is it helpful that we are enhancing and extending it?
4:10 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Hotel Association of Canada
It is helpful, but I will say that the timing is a bit misaligned with where we are today. That program will be more helpful to us in the spring. We do hope that the government will consider extending that program into the spring when we are hiring people back. We're in our off-season today, so we're trying to maintain as many workers as we can, but there's not enough demand today to hire back all of our workers that we would have in the spring and summer period.
It is an important program. It's hugely important for sectors of the economy that are in a hiring phase at the moment, but that's not where we are today.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON
I want to point out, too, because I think your comment is very important, that the program would be extended through to May 7, 2022—so when the spring has begun—and we have the authority, if the legislation passes, to extend the regulation until July 2, so I do think it would meet the criteria as you're indicating right now.
Thank you so much for that.
4:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Hotel Association of Canada
It's my pleasure, and we do hope for that extension.
Thank you.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I am honoured to be able to talk to Sophie Prégent, the president of the Union des artistes. I had an opportunity to meet her briefly at the Juripop legal clinic. I would be remiss not to highlight all her activities in the area of sexual violence and assistance to victims. She has played an essential leadership role in our society. So I am delighted to see her here today, despite the unfortunate and difficult situation in which artists find themselves.
Thank you once more for continuing that involvement, Ms. Prégent.
My first question is very simple. If Bill C‑2 contains nothing for the cultural sector, what consequences will that have for culture? The word despair has been used and we know that people are hesitant in buying tickets for shows.
Why do you think that self-employed workers in the cultural sector are not included in Bill C‑2?
4:15 p.m.
President, Union des Artistes
It's quite difficult for me to answer your question because I cannot talk to you about other sectors. I cannot talk about self-employed workers in general. I can only talk to you about the freelancers who are part of the whole cultural sector.
You have to understand that the performing arts act as an incubator for the future of culture. Let me explain: these are young artists who do no audiovisual work and so who are generally not well-known enough to do film, television or commercials. Their careers very often start in the street. These are artists who create stage works and create their own jobs up until the point when somebody takes a chance and employs them, hires them. Generally, the greatest careers are born on francophone stages, which is why I talk about an incubator.
The same goes for musicians. The tragedy today is that musicians are working for the love of it, because there's no money for them. It's not how they earn their living, they do something else. What will happen come the day when they no longer make a penny that way? No one will be there to take their place. Personally, I am concerned for the people who are struggling to make a living. But first and foremost, I am concerned for the culture of tomorrow, the culture that we are working on today and that will not be there in 10 years because the people in it now have decided to do something else in order to earn a living.
Will it become just a big hobby or do we consider that culture is important enough for us as a people to look out for it and help it back onto its feet after the pandemic?
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
You paint a very eloquent picture when you talk about working at two jobs, about the consequences on people's psychological state, and about the danger of losing expertise in the area.
The Minister of Finance has committed to work very hard for programs to be released in a time frame that the people involved find acceptable.
What time frame would be acceptable to you, given that the CRB has ended?
4:15 p.m.
President, Union des Artistes
To be perfectly honest, there ideally should have been no delay between the CRB and the new measures. The hiatus that we are currently in concerns me greatly because I know that there is no support. This means people will leave. There is an exodus from the sector because everyone has to earn a living, pay their rent and feed their children. I would like to give you a date, but I don't have one. If I were to give you one, I would probably tell you that it should have been done yesterday. To be positive about it, I can only say the sooner the better and that the need is great. I really don't know what to tell you apart from that.
Basically, it is going to take a permanent measure that looks like employment insurance, targeted to the self-employed workers, the freelancers, in the cultural sector. From a technical point of view, I know that it is all very difficult to get going. So something is needed while we wait. People can't just be thrown into the void; that's inconceivable. The impact will be serious and will be felt for a long time.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
One of the solutions that the Government of Québec favours is to work through the Fondation des artistes and set up a fund that, first and foremost, would identify the artists, connect with them, and then pay out money quickly. About 2,300 requests have been handled through that fund, financed by Québec.
Do you feel that working through the Fondation would be an acceptable approach for the federal government at the moment?
4:20 p.m.
President, Union des Artistes
I have been saying that since the crisis started. The Fondation is already organized, it's already in operation, the approach has been tested and there is an accountability mechanism. The foundation has been in existence for more than 35 years. Five million dollars have gone through the foundation. That money does not appear in our financial statements as donations but as grants. So it's not a donation to our members or to any artist. I make that clarification because it must be understood that the mission of the Fondation is not to help the members of the Union des artistes, but to help artists in general.
That could be a quick and effective measure that could well fill the terrible void that currently exists. Of course, we are always going to have the dream of a permanent measure in due course. But, as we wait, it's the best way to get moving quickly, in my opinion.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
The urgency of the situation in which the industry finds itself has to be understood. This is a matter of survival.
Thank you for your commitment, Ms. Prégent.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Thank you.
We are moving to the NDP and Mr. Blaikie for six minutes.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Thank you very much.
Ms. Kobluk, I want to thank you for putting an emphasis on the sense of urgency there is to try to settle the question of these benefit clawbacks that are happening. It's not only with the GIS; we're learning as times goes on that it's happening with other income-tested benefits, like the Canada child benefit and the Canada workers benefit as well.
The government has been saying for some time now that they're working on a solution. They haven't actually announced anything yet. Provided that they are getting close—they keep saying they're close, but we don't actually get a solution announced....
I'm wondering if you could provide a sense of when you talk about a systemic solution.... For a while, the government had been talking about people applying on a case-by-case basis for re-evaluation of their income for the next year's projected income. If there is going to be a systemic solution, to what extent should the onus be on the individuals affected to make an application of some kind in order to have their case reassessed?
Alternatively, does a systemic solution mean that the department should be conducting these reassessments for income-tested benefits and contacting affected people to let them know that they've been reassessed and can expect to have their benefit restored?
4:20 p.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Income Security Advocacy Centre
Yes. Thank you for that question.
The minister said it this morning in committee. I think it has to be on the onus of the government. I work with lawyers. They've looked at the avenues that are available. What we see is that if they apply through the CRA, the appeal mechanism is ultimately through income tax court, which requires a tremendous amount of resources and which no senior who is already living on the poverty line is going to access.
If they go through Service Canada, it's like I said: One person said that we're not getting clear directives even when people call in. It's confusing, and it will take a long time. It's not something that's going to happen overnight, so this has to come from the government.
Even though we've heard from many seniors, the other thing I want to say is that these are the seniors that make it to legal aid. There is a whole ton of seniors that we are not learning about and who don't even know that they might have a right to appeal. The government has known about this for over a year, and they should be using what mechanisms they can to alleviate poverty, which is what the GIS is meant to do.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Thank you.
I want to touch on another pressure point for a lot of folks who are living below the poverty line, which is the demand for CERB repayment from folks who applied because they were told to do it if they needed help and told that they were not going to be punished.
I raised earlier today the example of kids in Manitoba who graduated out of foster care during the pandemic, but there are people from many walks of life who were already in poverty who were pushed toward the CERB—in some cases, by government members.
I'm just wondering if you can you speak to the impact that's having and also to how much revenue the government could realistically expect to get by putting the heat on these folks who are already in financial distress.
4:25 p.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Income Security Advocacy Centre
Thank you for that.
ISAC has also supported the CERB amnesty campaign. There are many situations across the country, but the one we are most familiar with is social assistance recipients who were actually advised by their caseworkers and the legislation that you have to seek all forms of income support possible. If you're on $700 a month, if that's your paycheque—$733 a month—and you are now being told that you have to pay back $14,000....
I think what we're hearing from the government is “we'll do flexible repayment plans”. Do the math on that. For how many years—and I mean years—is this person going to be paying $50 a month? When you live on so little, that's the difference between groceries right now and not having groceries. I don't know where they're going to.... My mother would say it's getting blood out of a stone, right? That $50 means more to them than the government, I think.
These were not ill-intentioned people. These are not the fraudsters. These are people just getting by, and we've seen the rising costs.
I also want to say that whenever you're dealing with low-income people and things are shuttered because of lockdowns, those free services are gone, so they need extra money for the drop-in centres and for transit that they may have not been able to get onto if they have a disability and were at risk. This is part of the increased costs of the pandemic that I think we're maybe forgetting and already normalizing.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
I'm glad you mentioned the question of fraud, because it obviously has come up a lot here. In respect of the CERB, we know that there were fraudsters who are reported to have gone into seniors buildings, told people they were eligible when they weren't and said that they would facilitate access to the benefit in exchange for a cut of what they were receiving.
I mean, not all of the fraud is by individuals who have received all of the money. In some cases, they were people whose identities were stolen by fraudsters.
I wonder if you want to speak a bit to the nature of the CERB fraud that we should really be concerned about in terms of whom we should be going after and whom we need to recognize as victims of fraud, which is being compounded by the government chasing this debt.
4:25 p.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Income Security Advocacy Centre
What you've just described to me is elder abuse, right?
4:25 p.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Income Security Advocacy Centre
It feeds off the confusion of a senior. We have to remember that this was a confusing, unclear process from the government. The CERB changed many times. The government should not be assuming that such people, who were confused and were just trying to make it, are going to be the fraudsters. I know that—
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Thank you, Ms. Kobluk. That's the end of your time.
We are moving into our second round, members. We have the Conservatives with Mr. Poilievre up for five minutes.
