Evidence of meeting #62 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was plans.
A video is available from Parliament.
6:55 p.m.
President, Canadian Federation of Pensioners
It's just another attempt to take the risk that the employer has agreed to take on, willingly and freely, and shift it to the pensioners.
It would make the math easier, but the elephant in the room on the math is that these same claims that have been made today were made in 2005 on WEPP. If you can't provide data that shows some armageddon occurred because of WEPP, then I don't know how you can accept there will be a problem with this. That's math.
6:55 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I'd like to ask this of the Canadian Labour Congress. From your experience with your workers.... There have been two suggestions that the Liberals offer. One is a cap, and the other is that maybe we find out where we put the pensioner's rights—for example, the 70-year-old man I know who went back to work on the drills underground—compared to the bank's.
What would be a reasonable thing? The banks made $49.7 billion in Canada last year. Should the pensioner be ahead of the bank or behind the bank? Would that be a reasonable amendment?
6:55 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Canadian Labour Congress
We're here to say that this needs to be a superpriority. If you put a cap or a partial superpriority.... The reality is that when you're investing in your pension, you're not investing in your pension with the hope that you get most of it. You're investing in your pension expecting your pension to be at that level.
Let's just talk about the impact that's going to have. Supposedly, nobody is going to be able to borrow money ever again. Banks take into consideration so many...in terms of the risk that is associated with that. The ability for pensioners to demand the full value of their pension may absolutely be part of that discussion, but it's not going to be the only factor.
Commercial creditors, like banks and financial institutions, can take steps to protect their investment against the risk of default. They can expect companies to fully fund their pension benefit plans; I think that's not a bad thing. They can require increased disclosure about the funded status of their pension plans, and that's not a bad thing.
The reality is that when we look at interest rates over time, lenders still keep lending because they're in the business of lending. That's how they make their profit. There's no evidence to show that they're suddenly going to pull all of that, because the reality is that they need to stay in business as well.
Workers need to be at the top of that list so that they are not the ones taking on the risk when others are better able to take that risk.
6:55 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Mr. Powell, I want to end with you.
You talked about the armageddon scenario that's been brought forward. My God, I was so shocked when I learned our discussion might cause all these defined pension plans to just wind up and disappear.
I've watched defined pension plans disappear in my region for years. I've never seen one of those corporations go under; they just didn't want to pay into it anymore.
Do you think that us protecting pensions for people who had their pensions lost...? Is it a possibility that even us discussing this is going to make them all run out and wind up the pensions so this generation of workers is going to be left high and dry? Is that a reasonable scenario that's being put forward here?
6:55 p.m.
President, Canadian Federation of Pensioners
Again, I don't know, but if you use the term “wind up”.... To wind up a pension if you're an ongoing business, you have to fully fund it before you wind it up, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
The other thing is that when you talk about the 1.4 million or whatever it is, those are the active employees. There are probably four to five million already retired people depending on these benefits who are losing out.
I can say from my experience—I worked for General Motors of Canada—in the last AV we had, there were 600 to 700 actives in the pension plan and 6,000 to 7,000 retirees. When you look at that 1.2 million or 1.3 million, those are just the people who are actively working. This is another ageism thing in government. Nobody keeps track of pensioners. Statistics Canada doesn't. Nobody does.
The armageddon, in my mind, has never been proven. It's been threatened and forecast, but it's never happened.
7 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Thank you, Mr. Powell, and thank you, MP Angus.
To our expert witnesses, I want to thank you, on behalf of the finance committee, for your testimony and for the many questions you answered.
That will conclude our meeting.
We're adjourned, members.