I have to confess that my undergrad is in engineering, so that's my view in life. I think you go to the data.
I would issue a challenge. WEPP was implemented in 2005. At that time, these same industries, these same groups, made the same claim that disaster was going to occur. They can provide no data of what bad things happened. I can't remember the ACPM person who talked about the cycle of business, when businesses are failing and pensions are in trouble. I agree with that. That's the textbook answer. But that doesn't answer why over 70%, on an annual basis, of federally regulated pensions were underfunded from 2012 to 2020. Those two things don't jive.
The companies are playing, and I'm sorry to say it, a game. They don't have to fully fund their pension. It's in their interest not to. It's a cash flow gain for them. So I really struggle with how you give them the cash flow they want and protect pensioners. I think that's the other thing.
I do want to clarify one thing as well. Stelco is one of my members. The reason Stelco succeeded wasn't that they were given a trustee over on the side. The reason they succeeded was that there was a revenue flow built into that pension. Money went into that pension and is still going into that pension. The purchaser of the company didn't take over full responsibility, but they put some money in. There are all sorts of technical complexities—