Evidence of meeting #7 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:25 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Collections and Verification Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Once again, we don't have the answer to that question, unfortunately.
What I can say is that, once we receive the information, we examine the measures that can be put in place.
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Right. You don't have the response.
All right. When did your agency get this report from FINTRAC that I'm quoting from?
Anybody...?
2:25 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Collections and Verification Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Unfortunately, I can't provide a specific answer as far as that report is concerned.
2:25 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Collections and Verification Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
I can tell you that, as Ms. Caron explained earlier, we are in contact—
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
I'm sorry. You did answer or you said you don't know the answer. Is there anyone there who can tell me when your agency got this report from FINTRAC showing all of this fraud and abuse?
No one? Okay. Wow.
The report goes on. It's stamped here with a date of June 2020. I'm not sure if that's the accurate reporting date. Are you aware of this? This has actually been reported on in the media.
Is anyone from CRA aware of this report from FINTRAC?
2:25 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Collections and Verification Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
As I said earlier, the agency is in contact with those organizations and receives information on the nature of—
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Sorry, but I asked just a simple question. Are you aware of this document? Are you aware? This was reported in the media. It says that people got money who were not entitled to it, that people who were not even living in Canada got the CERB.
I'm asking a simple question. Is CRA aware of this report by this federal government agency that is responsible for money laundering and financial crime, yes or no?
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Mr. Poilievre's time is up.
Could you just answer the question very briefly? After that, we'll move to the Liberals.
2:25 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Collections and Verification Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Mr. Chair, we are familiar with the report.
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Chair. It's great to be back at the finance committee meeting.
One of the recurring patterns I've noticed today, Chair—and I think colleagues around the table have seen it—is that Conservative colleagues are very preoccupied with questions relating specifically to audits but also more generally questions around due diligence. I find it interesting and a bit contradictory, with all due respect, because just a few months ago, a former Conservative member of the finance committee, Mr. Kelly, penned a letter to the Minister of National Revenue in November 2020 calling for audits to be suspended entirely. The letter was referenced earlier by Mr. Baker. These are audits on the use of the wage subsidy by small businesses, so I struggle to understand the Conservative position, but for the benefit of colleagues, specifically Conservative colleagues, I'll table that letter with the committee chair. I think it will help inform the work that's been happening here over the past few days.
To officials, first of all, thank you very much for your work throughout the pandemic and ongoing. It is truly appreciated by us but specifically by constituents in London, where I'm from—
2:30 p.m.
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, we'll give the member extra time if he wants to read that letter directly into the record at this point in time, please.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Chair, I'll table it, which is something I can also do.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
The number of CERB recipients is what I'm looking for, but I was just saying how appreciated CERB has been and it's appreciated because public servants put it forward. I believe the number is eight million. Is that correct?
2:30 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
That is correct. It's the right range.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
Furthermore, I just want to ask about something that was touched on earlier, I think in a question Mr. Julian raised.
Standard prepayment controls are used by the CRA for programs administered by the agency. That's not just very common; it's part of the mandate of the organization to put those controls in place. What are some of those controls outside of the pandemic? I'm talking about in normal times.
2:30 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
There are a range of controls that we use, both for the pandemic measures and for others. We check things. If it's for a business, we'll check the business number. We'll check how long it's been in business. We may check the size of its payroll. We may check past compliance records. There are range of things that we look at, depending on the type of benefit and the amount.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Mr. Vermaeten, I'm sorry. I don't mean to interrupt you, but for individuals as well, you check their hours worked and things like that, right?
December 10th, 2021 / 2:30 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Certainly you're looking at things, depending on the program. It's not easy, for example, to look at hours worked, but for employment insurance, employees have the ability to look at their employment record, to get the record of employment from the employer and verify that information.
2:30 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Of course, it's different in the situation of the self-employed.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Yes, and that's in normal times, but in the context of a pandemic, it's very difficult to do, and that's why the attestation approach was used, which is something mentioned in the sixth report of the Auditor General, which Madame Chatel referenced earlier.
For the benefit of the committee—this is not even a partisan comment—I would suggest that members read that report. It's highly instructive. It gives very good insight on CERB specifically, on some of the program design but also some of the thinking that went into that program design.
One of the key findings—and again, this is all in the context of analysis of an emergency program—is as follows. I quote directly from that report, Mr. Chair, and since Mr. McLean was so eager for me to read something into the record, I'll indulge him here.
It is paragraph 6.53. The Auditor General found, it says, the following:
We found that, by using attestations and limiting the number of pre-payment controls to validate eligibility, Employment and Social Development Canada and the Canada Revenue Agency were aware that some payments would be issued to applicants who were not entitled to the benefit. This included potential cases of intentional misrepresentation.
The key thing, though, is this:
Accepting risks in order to expedite payments to those in need is consistent with best practices promoted by the International Public Sector Fraud Forum and its Principles of Fraud Control in Emergency Management.
What we are left with is a really important insight, and again, to my colleagues across the way who have pressed this issue of due diligence, there were attestations. If there is time, I'll ask about those, but in the context of the pandemic, public servants put forward an approach that, yes, did involve some risk, but that always made sure to focus on Canadians, the now close to, as I heard Mr. Blaikie whisper a few minutes ago, nine million or eight million, or whatever the number is.
I'll go with public servants on that number, with all due respect to Mr. Blaikie. They get the support they need.