Finance Committee on Dec. 10th, 2021

[Frank Vermaeten]

Just to clarify, you're asking whether we have seen any studies on that. Is that the question, sir?

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes. Are you aware of any impact studies that have been conducted to assess the effect of the CRB cancellation on those classes of workers?

[Frank Vermaeten]

I am not. Again, I'll just reiterate that this policy is an ESDC policy. They and the Department of Finance are both responsible for the policies here. We're responsible for the administration.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Okay, I think Mr. Julian covered this question before with respect to the CRB. I'm looking specifically for an analysis on the decision to end the CRB, including the financial profile of CRB recipients as a group. Can you expand a little bit on the previous question he asked, but with respect to an analysis?

[Frank Vermaeten]

As I said previously, I am not aware of any formal analysis with respect to published papers. Certainly ESDC has been looking at the issue of what kinds of benefits have been needed over time and how that's evolved. What I observed from CRA is a clear pattern of how demand for that product, for that financial support, has gone down significantly as the economy has strengthened.

Is there a black-and-white answer in a study that says it is needed or not needed? I don't believe there is. I think we're seeing programs evolving on both the individual and business sides, and I want to stress that on the business side, those benefits are also helping people to get jobs and retain jobs. They are those types of benefits. There are also, of course, a range of other benefits out there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor. That's your time.

We're moving to the Conservatives. Mr. McLean, you have five minutes.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the officials for coming today and for giving us the answers we need to make sure we're moving this bill forward, but I will comment, and I want the officials to know, that many of us on this committee have enough background in finance and economics to understand that the consolidated revenue fund is just a bank account. The money still has to come from somewhere, and I encourage my colleague Mr. Baker on the other side to understand where that money must come from to arrive in the consolidated revenue fund in the first place. It will add a lot of value in that respect.

Mr. Vermaeten, you commented earlier about the patience regarding the delivery of benefits that certain people are going to require once this bill is passed and with respect to getting this bill passed. This is definitely a rushed timetable that has been placed upon us here. This committee was composed literally this week to look at what this bill should be.

My first question is this: Is it historically unusual to jam a spending bill this quickly in front of the finance committee immediately after Parliament is recalled?

[Frank Vermaeten]

I'm not qualified to answer that. I will say that the last 18 months have been extraordinary in terms of my career. I've been working for the government for nearly 32 years, and things are done much faster than they were before. The CERB, for example, was introduced in three weeks, including the legislation. I'll say these are still extraordinary times, but I have no expertise to say whether or not this was extremely quick following the opening of Parliament .

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay, thank you.

Would you say that having a delay of several months due to an election and then refusing to call Parliament back for two months would have caused this rush and this—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Go ahead, Mr. Fragiskatos, on a point of order.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Chair, Mr. McLean was elected in 2019, if I'm not mistaken, so he will know that putting explicitly political questions to public servants is not appropriate, and we're not just wavering into it; we're in that sphere already.

I would just caution my colleague that he's putting public servants in an impossible position.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you.

Would you suggest it's unusual for a government not to be sitting when they had to deal with these types of urgent financial matters, Mr. Vermaeten?

[Frank Vermaeten]

I have no comment on the matter. I do know that at the agency, we've continued our work throughout elections, throughout the winter, throughout COVID—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay, and here we are, so let me ask one final question, if I can, because my time is probably running out soon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have two minutes.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Oh, good.

There's an investigation going on about CERB distribution of funds in Calgary, my city, in particular. Can you update us on that investigation, please?

[Frank Vermaeten]

Perhaps I could turn to one of my colleagues, if they are aware of the situation, and if they're in a position—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Yes, and for a little more clarification, there are allegations of political interference and manipulating attempts to get more money from CERB by political candidates. I'm certain you are aware of it. I would just like to know where in the process that investigation is, please.

[Marc Lemieux]

I'm not aware of an investigation of that nature and I think it would be fair to mention that we're not investigating these things. It's for other authorities to do these investigations.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay. As far as the fraud that's been perpetrated through CERB goes, I know that when you rush things out like this, you can't catch everything and some things will fall through the cracks, but has there been some learning from the mistakes that have occurred along the path so they don't happen with this program?

[Janique Caron, Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency]

Thank you for the question.

As you mentioned, with programs of this scale there will be some fraud. However, we have definitely learned and we have controls, tools and measures in place. We work with partners like the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and other government departments when we detect suspicious activities. It's been a learning experience. We take very seriously any cases that have been flagged to us or that we've uncovered ourselves, and we investigate them.

As scammers adapt their practices, so do we. We routinely monitor accounts for suspicious activity to detect, prevent and address the potential instances of fraud, including unauthorized use of stolen credentials and—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We are moving over to the Liberals and Mr. MacDonald for five minutes.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

Listening to this conversation, I just want to say for those listening outside of these four walls that the vast majority of Canadians are honest. We all believe that.

I want to touch on Mr. Julian's comments too. I believe—and correct me if I'm wrong—that the minister was on the record as being committed to addressing the negative interactions between recovery benefits and the GIS. I just want to make sure that we actually mention that.

I would like to follow up on Mr. McLean's question and allow the answers, because that was actually one of the questions that I had and it was relevant to the checks and balances going forward, so if she could continue with her answer, it would certainly be appreciated.

[Janique Caron]

Mr. Chair, is the question with regard to learning from fraud?