Finance Committee on Dec. 10th, 2021

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Yes.

[Janique Caron]

Okay. Great.

As I said, we've definitely continued to learn throughout the process. We increased the capacity in the teams. We created a new team to coordinate all of the efforts so that we could share information as well and make the linkages between all of the behaviours we're seeing. Of course, we won't disclose all of the controls we have or the threats we are facing, but we are definitely learning.

One of the key tools we are using is data analytics and business intelligence gathered from many sources. We've had many partners. Law enforcement agencies and financial institutions have been key partners as well. We also get leads. Thankfully, as well, budget 2021 announced $330 million over five years that will, once approved, allow us to continue to invest even more in making sure that we protect ourselves, that we detect, that we control.

No taxpayers who have been confirmed as subjects of fraud incidents are liable for the amounts that were paid. We have them. We've also dedicated phone lines to help them and have increased the capacity in our call centres, because we do appreciate that this created a lot of calls to our organization.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you. That's a great answer.

Sometimes around this table, with the rhetoric, I think we forget how chaotic the beginning of this pandemic was. I've been in public life for quite some time and I don't think I've seen bureaucracy or bureaucrats react so quickly, so kudos to you and your team at CRA.

With regard to the co-operation and communication among the different organizations relevant to fraud, what can you tell us about those lines of communication or those checks and balances? We had FINTRAC in here this week as well. We didn't have the RCMP here, but I know they've been mentioned several times. Can someone elaborate on the verification, the checks and balances pre and post that go into ensuring that everything you do is done adequately for the taxpayers of Canada?

[Janique Caron]

We definitely collaborate. Perhaps Ms. Hawara will be able to complement the answer as well.

When we see, for example, something that meets the criteria to warrant our criminal investigation team looking into a situation, then we involve those experts on the file. They're the ones who interact very closely with the authorities and with the RCMP. That's definitely one of the partnerships we have.

As I said, we have partnerships with financial institutions as well. Those are critical. They have shared leads with us, for example, so we are very much working closely together.

I don't know whether Ms. Hawara would have additional information.

[Cathy Hawara]

You covered it very well.

I would emphasize that there are very strong relationships between the Canada Revenue Agency and law enforcement, in particular the RCMP, and FINTRAC and others in terms of supporting our mandate to investigate criminal offences such as tax evasion and benefit fraud. Those partnerships are strong and are working well, and we are engaged at the moment with them. That's what I would say.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That's your time, Mr. MacDonald.

We are moving into our third round, members. We have the Conservatives up for five minutes.

I have Mr. Chambers.

Oh, I'm sorry. It's Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Thank you.

I have here the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada report on the CERB. It indicates the following:

...criminal organizations, using stolen IDs and individuals recruited via social media, are operating 'CERB scams' in certain cities; prepaid cards are loaded with CERB benefits and other laundered funds.

Since CRA received this report, how many dollars has CRA recovered from pursuing the perpetrators of these scams?

[Cathy Hawara]

I would say our work is ongoing. These are complex cases, and I'm not in a position to provide an answer to that specific question yet, but—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Thank you.

[Cathy Hawara]

—transparency is important, and when we're ready, we will.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Thank you very much.

The report further indicates that clients who do not meet the CERB eligibility requirements and who are fully employed still apply for and receive CERB benefits, often while engaging in suspicious financial activity.

Since CRA received this report, how many dollars has CRA recovered from the people who fraudulently received the CERB even though they were engaged in suspicious activities and were already employed?

[Cathy Hawara]

It would be the same answer as I previously provided—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

So we don't know.

[Cathy Hawara]

The work is—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

No, no. I know. The work is ongoing, but how many dollars have been recovered?.

[Cathy Hawara]

I don't have that figure to give you, unfortunately.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Have any been recovered?

[Cathy Hawara]

I don't have that figure to give you. In our work—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Who would know?

[Cathy Hawara]

In our work, the broader work in relation to our audits of CERB recipients, will start in 2022.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Then no dollars have been recovered?

That's a question.

[Cathy Hawara]

I don't know if Monsieur Lemieux might have an answer to that particular question, but on the criminal investigation side, our work is still ongoing and—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Okay.

[Cathy Hawara]

—my understanding is that the audit work for CERB on the civil side is only going to begin in 2022.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

All right. The CERB began being paid out at the beginning of 2020, and you're not even going to begin the audit work until two years later.

I'll try elsewhere.

This investigation by FINTRAC showed that clients have applied for and received CERB despite not living in Canada and appearing to be residing in a jurisdiction of concern.

How many people not living in Canada got the CERB—the number of people?