Evidence of meeting #7 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Frank Vermaeten  Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Marc Lemieux  Assistant Commissioner, Collections and Verification Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre Roger
Cathy Hawara  Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Programs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Janique Caron  Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Philippe Méla  Legislative Clerk

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Go ahead, Ms. Hawara.

2:45 p.m.

Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Programs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Cathy Hawara

From a criminal investigations perspective, I can assure the committee that we are working closely with our partners. We are aware of the risks and the possibilities of fraud. As soon as we are able to share information, we will, but these are investigations that we cannot discuss. We are actively working on this.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you. That's your time, Mr. Stewart.

We are moving to the Liberals. Mr. Baker, you have five minutes.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'm going to cede my time, if I may, to Mr. Beech.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Baker. We'll go to Mr. Beech.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today.

Thank you to the committee for all the good work we've been doing over this week.

I do want to take an opportunity to move a motion. Hopefully, we can get through it quickly and have more time with our witnesses before our time runs out.

It has become obvious, as we all know, that we lost part e) and part f) of the motion previously, but given the testimony we've had to this point, the urgency that is required to get these supports in place has been made very clear, not just for our tourism businesses and other organizations that are hard hit but for people in communities right across Canada, especially during the break after the House rises.

I do appreciate the points that have been raised by colleagues, especially around the cultural sector and around impacts of benefits, especially income-tested benefits, and it is with that in mind that I would like to move the following motion.

I move (a) that pursuant to the motion adopted on Monday, December 6, the Standing Committee on Finance reinvite the Minister of Canadian Heritage and officials to appear before the committee for one hour at 11 a.m. on Monday, December 13; (b) that all amendments to the bill be submitted to the clerk of the committee by 4 p.m. on Saturday, December 11; (c) that the committee proceed to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-2 at 6 p.m. on Monday, December 13; (d) that at 10 p.m. on Monday, December 13, every question necessary for the disposal of the said stage of the bill shall be put forthwith and successively without further debate or amendment; and (e) that the chair be ordered to table the bill in the House on Tuesday, December 14.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Beech.

Is there discussion?

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

We have Mr. Poilievre on a point of order.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Yes. Normally we leave motions to the end of the meeting.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

There is a motion on the floor, Mr. Poilievre

Is there discussion?

We have Mr. Blaikie and then Madame Larouche.

2:50 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Thank you very much.

Given that the motion does touch on witnesses that the committee would be hearing from before the end of its study, one of the voices we haven't heard around the table yet is the voice of Canadian labour. I understand that the Canadian Labour Congress is interested in appearing—

2:50 p.m.

Bloc

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

Mr. Chair, the interpreter is having trouble making out what Mr. Blaikie is saying. Can he bring his mike closer to his mouth?

2:50 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

I can also speak a little louder.

Considering that the motion does treat the question of witnesses and it may well be that this motion passes, I think we would be remiss if we didn't hear the voices of labour at the table. This is a bill and a pandemic program that has a lot of consequences for workers across the country.

I believe the Canadian Labour Congress is quite interested in weighing in on this, so I would move to amend the motion. I think the motion says that the Minister of Heritage would be invited to appear at 11 o'clock. I would move that we invite the Canadian Labour Congress to appear at noon for an hour.

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC

I'd be happy to take that as a friendly amendment.

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

We have a friendly amendment to the main motion.

We have Madame Larouche and then Mr. McLean, Mr. Poilievre and Mr. Stewart on our list.

Go ahead, Madam Larouche.

2:50 p.m.

Bloc

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

A motion was adopted by the committee on Monday, and we expect the Minister of Canadian Heritage to be here this coming Monday. That is a condition of the Bloc Québécois in order to continue with clause-by-clause consideration.

As for the NDP's motion, we'll see what the committee decides in relation to that part come noon.

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

We have Mr. McLean.

2:50 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the motion.

I'm looking at the number of witnesses we've asked to be part of this committee so that we can get full disclosure on the effects of what are clearly undefined parts of this bill and what the financial implications are going forward, as well as the people who are affected. There's some important input that still has to come, and I really want to make sure we get that input.

When I look at the names we've put on the list, I look at FINTRAC, which we've heard from. We do need to talk to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and the Macdonald-Laurier Institute, but it is really important to hear from the Auditor General of Canada. They need to have some input on this legislation as well.

We have other economists here who need to describe to us, from a finance committee point of view, exactly what the effects are of unlimited spending. As we've heard, that $7.4 billion has no modelling associated with it. It has no end date. It's been extended by two years, when the program was only supposed to be extended by seven months. It is deep in the weeds. The Fraser Institute would give us some explanation on this. There's the RSM tax department and, finally, the C.D. Howe Institute. These are all reputable institutions that could give us some guidance on how to make this bill better.

The fact that we're not even interested in trying to make this bill better at this point in time and the rushed timetable within which Parliament's been called upon to deal with this very quickly, because the money's needed.... We know the money's needed. Money's always needed.

There's a retrospective portion of this bill, as you will recall, Mr. Chair. That's very clear about how people are going to be dealt with once this is over. The spelling out of those details is not yet clear.

I would like that clarity. If anybody could provide it, some type of explanation would be appropriate for this committee.

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. McLean.

Go ahead, Mr. Poilievre.

2:50 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

I have an amendment.

Before I get to that, I just find it interesting that the Liberals are learning, according to one of the government's own agencies—the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada—that people defrauded the CERB, that people took the money even though they don't live in Canada, that some people got multiple cheques in the same week, even though we all know that it is a—

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Mr. Poilievre, are you speaking to the motion or to the amendment?

December 10th, 2021 / 2:50 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Yes, I am. Actually, I am. I do have the floor, so thank you very little.

To go back to my point, the Liberals are learning that basically the taxpayer's being defrauded of money, that people are taking multiple CERB cheques in a week—even though it's a once-a-week benefit—that people who are organized criminals are defrauding the system and that people who don't even live in Canada are getting the money. What do they do? How do they respond to that news? They say, “Well, let's hurry up and pass some more government cheques” rather than “Boy, now that we've learned about all of this misappropriation, we'd better look into how that happened.” I think it's incredible how little interest they have in scrutinizing how the money is spent instead of just trying to shovel more and more of it out the door.

I would move an amendment to this proposed motion by adding the following paragraph—sorry; before I add the paragraph, I will say to delete all of the deadlines that Mr. Fragiskatos listed in his original motion for submissions of amendments and for reporting back to the House.

Instead, I would replace that with the following amendment: “That the Standing Committee on Finance continue to hear witness testimony on Bill C-2 the week of December 13, 2021; that the clerk reinvite witnesses who were unable to appear on Bill C-2 due to scheduling conflicts; that the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance appear before this committee on the economic and fiscal update 2021 for three hours prior to the House of Commons' rising on December 17, 2021; and that each answer that the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance provides does not exceed the time taken to ask the question.”

For some context—

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

You have a point of order, Mr. Blaikie.

2:55 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Mr. Poilievre said that he was moving an amendment to Mr. Fragiskatos's motion. I just wonder if the amendment is in order, because the motion on the floor, of course, is Mr. Beech's motion.

I wonder if that was just confusion—