Evidence of meeting #7 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB
So you played no role whatsoever in the drafting of the bill. You're saying no. Is that...?
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
I'm saying that's not our primary responsibility. We can provide comments on it. Certainly the justice representatives from the various departments are all participating in these processes, but the responsibility for the legislation ultimately falls, in the case of the individual benefits, as I said, with ESDC, and with the Department of Finance for the changes with respect to the business benefits.
Conservative
Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB
Clearly, I understand what your responsibility is, but my question is actually a yes-or-no answer. If it's no, just say no. It's okay. I mean, you're here; you might as well answer the question. Nobody else has.
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
I'm trying to answer the question as accurately as possible—that we participate; we provide commentary; so therefore, we certainly feel—
Conservative
Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB
I have to interrupt you there. I asked a very specific question. If the answer is no, the answer is no, so I'm going to just take that as a no, because clearly you're not answering it.
Liberal
Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC
I'm just wondering why we have to put words into the mouths of the witnesses. I mean, they provide an answer. You cannot reframe the question—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
That's not a point of order.
It would help if we didn't have crosstalk. We'll allow Mr. Stewart to continue.
Conservative
Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB
I asked a very simple question. If the Canada Revenue Agency is coming in here today and they're not willing to answer the question, they're not doing anything for my constituents and they're not doing anything for this committee.
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
Well, I'll raise a point of order, Mr. Chair, if I may. The point of order I have to raise is that I'd like you to instruct the witnesses to answer the questions that are posed to them, please.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
That is not a point of order.
The witnesses are answering the questions. I have been listening.
We'll allow Mr. Vermaeten to answer the question. If he wants to repeat his answer to the question, we'll allow Mr. Vermaeten to repeat his answer.
Conservative
Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB
I'll ask a new question. We'll move on from that. He doesn't want to answer that one. That's okay.
What role did the Canada Revenue Agency play in the drafting of the current bill? What did you do with the information FINTRAC provided you at the Standing Committee on Finance in July of 2020?
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Perhaps I could turn to my colleague Monsieur Lemieux to discuss the FINTRAC feedback.
Marc Lemieux Assistant Commissioner, Collections and Verification Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
On the question of how we manage the information we receive from partners and stakeholders in terms of potential fraudulent activities, we take that information and we adapt our controls accordingly. This is an ongoing function that we have in the agency. We've always had that concern of potential fraudulent activities from criminals who are trying to defraud the agency. We are always in contact with authorities to make sure that we are aware of any potential schemes. We continue to evolve our programs and adapt the delivery of our programs to make sure we close those doors if ever we find them.
We're not isolated from what's happening in the world. Any private or public organization is subject to those attempts. We invest in and make sure we have the people and the tools to detect those attempts and add, when necessary, corrective actions.
We were made aware in the summer of 2020 of potential fraudulent activities. We've adapted our programs and our practices accordingly.
Now it's—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
That's the time that we have, Mr. Stewart. We're moving over to the Liberals and Mr. Baker for six minutes.
December 10th, 2021 / 1:20 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to start by thanking the witnesses, the civil servants from the Canada Revenue Agency, for being here today. I want to start by thanking you for the hard work that you've done in helping to deliver the programs that have rescued countless businesses and helped Canadians put food on the table in a desperate time during a global crisis. I think I speak for my colleagues when I express my gratitude to all of you for all of your hard work. We thank you for that.
Before I ask my question, I want to speak to what Mr. Stewart said.
I am disappointed, because questions that the Conservatives keep asking continue to be answered, yet the Conservatives pretend they haven't been answered. One of the questions that Mr. Stewart said wasn't answered was where the funding was coming from to pay for the measures in Bill C-2. The very day that was asked—and you can check the Hansard—I read into the record the section of Bill C-2 that specifies where the funding is coming from. It's section 29. I'll repeat it again; it's in the consolidated revenue fund. The minister was clear in answering that question when she presented to us here yesterday.
On the question of the role of the Canada Revenue Agency in drafting the bill, which Mr. Stewart asked repeatedly of the civil servants from the CRA and argued that it wasn't answered, I thought that the answer from the representative from the CRA was very clear. They indicated that their role was to provide comments and input. The question has been asked. The question has been answered. On the first question, it was asked and it was answered.
It's shameful that some Conservative members are pretending their questions aren't being answered. It's shameful that they're treating our civil servants in this way, particularly the civil servants who have been part of the team that delivered the programs that have been so important to millions of Canadians.
I want to put that on the record, Mr. Chair.
My question to our witnesses is this. My understanding is that the Canada Revenue Agency would be responsible for administering the new benefits that are part of Bill C-2. Could I ask you to describe in detail the cost and the impact of delaying implementation of the programs in Bill C-2? What would be the impact for Canadian businesses and what would be the impact for Canadian workers?
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
I'd be happy to begin answering that question.
As the committee is probably aware right now, without the legislation we're in a situation in which individuals, on the individual side, aren't able to access the sickness benefit anymore. The same thing is true for the caregiving benefit. Those supports are important for those individuals who find themselves in a situation, with the ongoing pandemic, of being sick, having a day care that's closed or having a child who's sick or potentially at risk for COVID. As a result, they're not going to be able to work. They need to stay home. This bill provides that financial support. That's not going to be available until the legislation is passed.
The new lockdown benefit would not be available, and then you've got the benefits on the business side. The new period is not available right now, so in terms of benefits going forward, this legislation is needed so that you can provide the support—the wage subsidy and the rent subsidy—in the new forms and in that particular sector of tourism. I'm not going to speak for the tourism and hospitality sector, but that's an area where there's a continued pressure. Not having these funds available is going to create challenges for the sector. We hear that. We are appreciative that we're not....
I think people recognize the challenges of delivering these benefits and that the legislation needs to be examined, but at the same time there's an impatience out there as far as delivering these benefits is concerned.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Could you speak to what that impatience is? What I hear you saying is that these programs would be delayed to businesses—
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Yes.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
—and to Canadians.
What I'm trying to get to is.... I'm thinking about my constituents in Etobicoke Centre who might be watching. Help them understand the importance of this bill. What would be the impact on the ground of delaying these programs for several months?
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
If it's several months, the viability of some businesses will be at stake here. They would have to lay off people they'd like to keep, as the pandemic continues. It's one of these things.... The pandemic has continued a lot longer than all of us expected, so there are certainly businesses in jeopardy. There are people who will lose their jobs as a result.
Can I quantify that today? No, but you can imagine by the size of these programs that they are very important and that they are providing important support for individuals, and even macroeconomic support.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
I have 30 seconds left, so I'll be brief.
In the last Parliament, the opposition Conservatives voted in favour of a motion to eliminate audits on the wage subsidy. Could you elaborate on the impact of suspending these audits?
Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
I'll pass that to my colleagues, Monsieur Lemieux and Cathy Hawara.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Your time is up.
We're moving over to the Bloc. Will it be Madam Sinclair-Desgagné or Madam Larouche?
