Evidence of meeting #84 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was risks.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter Routledge  Superintendent, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions
Stephane Tardif  Managing Director, Climate Risks, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions
Christine Bergeron  President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancity

Noon

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

That's great. Thank you for that correction.

I also understand that we're trying to create a holistic system here to manage climate risk. We've heard that SFAC is working on the taxonomy. There is some really great foundational work there. We know your B-15 guideline hasn't come into force yet, but hopefully it will soon. We know the Canadian Securities Administrators also have a 51-107 national instrument.

What is missing? I've heard that SFAC contains 25 of the largest financial institutions that are federally regulated in the country, and they're asking for mandatory disclosures. Is that another piece of being able to manage risk, and does OSFI support their request for mandatory disclosures across the entire Canadian economy?

April 20th, 2023 / noon

Superintendent, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

Peter Routledge

By their discussions, you mean those of the SFAC council—

Noon

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

That's the sustainable finance action council, yes. I apologize.

Noon

Superintendent, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

Peter Routledge

In financial services, transparency trumps opacity every time, so any activity by responsible counterparties in the system that coax, nudge or otherwise mandate more transparency will generally improve risk management.

As a prudential principles-based regulator, we don't do mandator rules. We do guidelines and principles-based regulation, and we'll never change that. It's important that I say that for my regulator constituents.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull, and welcome to our committee.

We want to thank OSFI: We want to thank Mr. Routledge and Mr. Tardif for answering many questions for our committee. Many of them were rapid-fire here, but we did get a lot of information, and we really appreciate your testimony for this study. Thank you very much.

Members, we're just going to suspend quickly to bring in our second panel.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Members, we will resume our meeting. We have our witness here for our second panel.

Our witness is Ms. Christine Bergeron, who is the president and chief executive officer of Vancity.

Welcome. You are coming to us remotely. I understand that your sound has been tested and everything is working well.

Ms. Bergeron, you'll have opportunity now for some opening remarks for the members.

Thank you.

12:05 p.m.

Christine Bergeron President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancity

Good morning.

Before I begin, I want to acknowledge that I am speaking from the unceded ancestral territories of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh first nations. They have been custodians of the lands here for thousands of years, so I want to pay my respect to the elders past and present.

Thank you for inviting me today to talk to you about finance and green investments as well as transition and transparency in finance.

Vancity has for decades been working in the field of green finance, and we have been a leader both in disclosure and in thinking about how climate change and social issues are tied together.

Climate change is an urgent threat to Canadians in every province, including Vancity's more than 550,000 members and the communities of British Columbia where our members live and work. Climate change is costing Canada's economy billions of dollars and counting. While some Canadians can afford to adapt their lives to the climate challenge, many Canadians cannot. The climate challenge and the affordability crisis go hand in hand and are making each other worse.

In research that we partnered on recently, 30% of British Columbians, almost one in three, reported being impacted by extreme weather events in the last one to two years. For us in British Columbia, they are floods, fires and heat domes. Fifty-six percent of British Columbians who reported such an impact also reported high financial stress.

Businesses, including financial institutions, have a major role to play in addressing these challenges, and many are willing to step up. The net-zero journey towards a sustainable economy is one we must all take. Government and regulatory action is essential to enable all of us to achieve our net-zero goals faster and more effectively. At the same time, we can't lose sight of the affordability challenges that many Canadians are encountering, both in terms of the rising cost of living and in terms of housing affordability. From our perspective, the climate transition will fail if some Canadians are left behind in the transition, yet affordability is unachievable if we don't also transition to a clean and sustainable economy. The two challenges are inseparable.

On green financing and investment, in comparison to 10 or five or three years ago, tremendous progress has been made broadly in capital being allocated to sustainability. Encouraging and growing green financing and investment in Canada is an important part of the climate transition. We need to continue to see an acceleration of this capital allocation.

Vancity is an active member participant of the sustainable finance action council, which is working to provide recommendations to the Government of Canada to help transition the economy as quickly as possible, including capital allocation to achieve net zero.

Simply put, we believe that we need to transform the economy to one that protects the earth and guarantees equity for all. As we transition to net zero, we also need to pay close attention to how funding for sustainable initiatives is employed.

First, the right voices must be at the table as we transition the economy. If we rely on traditional modes for capital allocation, which have excluded too many Canadians in the past, we will end up with a low-carbon economy that is even more inequitable and potentially leaves workers behind. In addition to thinking about different modes for capital allocation, we also need to think about different frameworks for risk and return with a climate lens.

The work in progress to date in green finance has also largely been done within our current risk and return frameworks. It's useful and very important, but it may be insufficient to enable us to successfully, as a society, reduce inequality or drop emissions sufficiently. We need more innovation in partnerships and collaborations, products and policy.

We believe that consumers, investors and actors throughout various supply chains are ready to make this transition, but they need help in the form of greater climate disclosure, better data and market signals that help to price the climate into our economy. Take, for example, Vancity. We've set a goal of net-zero financed emissions by 2040. The bulk of our emissions come from real estate, both commercial and residential. As we've modelled our pathway to zero, it's become clear that between 80%, possibly up to 90%, of those reductions will need to come from some form of public policy support, either the ongoing implementation of new policies or the introduction of new ones, not to mention that we need a system of standardized building labelling to truly measure our progress.

I know we are not alone. Many private organizations are ready to act and keen to play their part in the transition, but like us, they need policies, data and investments to help them get there.

Transition finance is an important tool in achieving all these goals. However, the devil, as the saying goes, is really in the details. We know that it is essential for financial institutions to work with heavy emitters to transition their business models to the clean economy. At the same time, we believe that this work must be accompanied by transition plans that are aggressive, credible and transparent.

The public should have confidence that a promise to transition brings with it not just financing, but also a fundamental and urgent change to the way we do business. As part of that change, we work collectively to ensure that the workers who built these organizations are able to thrive and prosper from the transition and not be left behind.

Small businesses must also be part of the journey to net zero. Consumers are making more buying decisions than ever based on a business's reputation, including its commitment to social and environmental issues. This isn't just individual consumers, but also large—

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Ms. Bergeron.

The members want to get to questions, and we want to have as much time as possible to ask you questions.

We are going to start right away with our first round of questions. We have the Conservatives first, with Mr. Morantz for six minutes, please.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ms. Bergeron, for being here virtually.

It's been a very interesting study on green finance. I must admit it wasn't a topic that I knew much about before we embarked on this study.

You talked about affordability in your opening statement. I realize that British Columbia has its own carbon tax. It's not a backstop province.

Recently a Parliamentary Budget Officer came out with a report that basically said the opposite of what the government has been telling us about the affordability of a carbon tax. They've been telling the public that the carbon tax is essentially neutral in terms of their pocketbooks. It's cash in and cash out. The Parliamentary Budget Officer now says that in most provinces, families will be out of pocket over and above the rebates by $1,500 to $1,800.

I'm just wondering if you're concerned about the affordability crisis. Do you think revisions need to be made or that the carbon tax needs to be scrapped in order to ensure that Canadians can afford to eat, heat their homes and make their mortgage payments?

12:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancity

Christine Bergeron

Thank you.

From my perspective, we are concerned about the combination of affordability and climate impacts, knowing that additional financial stress occurs on those who are being affected by climate, in addition to affordability.

As a financial institution in British Columbia, I don't have a perspective specifically on the carbon tax as it relates to individual homeowners.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Again, in terms of affordability, in the fall economic statement in November, the government levied a new tax on financial institutions. They called it a one-time tax. I think they called it a pandemic dividend, or something like that. I believe they collected about $15 billion from the major financial institutions.

In your capacity as the head of Vancity, would you feel comfortable with an organization like Vancity paying something like this?

12:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancity

Christine Bergeron

We are provincially regulated and have various tax provisions. We certainly want to pay all taxes that we need to pay. That's largely our perspective. It's to contribute back as we can.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

However, do you want to do it on the same level as the major financial institutions?

12:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancity

Christine Bergeron

I'd have to look at the details, but my understanding is that we are taxed appropriately for the size of our institution and the revenue and profit that we have.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

I want to turn to your website, where it talks about “eco-efficiency loans”.

I just wonder if you could explain that program a bit. For example, if somebody buys a 100-year-old home that has poor insulation and is basically a nightmare in terms of carbon emissions, would that homeowner qualify for an eco-efficiency loan?

12:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancity

Christine Bergeron

For an eco-efficiency loan, are you referencing a specific federal loan?

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

No. Your website talks about a program called “eco-efficiency loans”. Actually, they're business loans.

Maybe a home isn't the right example, but are you familiar with that program?

12:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancity

Christine Bergeron

Sure. I can speak to some of those examples of our products.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Mainly because I have limited time, what I'm curious about is whether someone who's applying for an eco-efficiency loan for a business would get preferential terms in interest rates, fees, amortization and that kind of thing over a conventional business loan.

12:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancity

Christine Bergeron

Broadly, we have been piloting various different programs and products to understand how we can support people to transition if they're interested in doing retrofits. Largely, it's related to retrofits.

We have looked at pricing and terms and conditions, but typically, these are pilot projects in which we are working with a specific business owner. We do not turn people away—to your question on depending on what the business is like—but we work with them, and we want to work with them on transition plans.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

In terms of the nature of some of these loans.... Say, for example, a first nations group came and wanted to have an oil well or to build an LNG facility for natural gas, or they wanted to develop a mine on their property for critical minerals or that sort of thing. Are those the types of loans that Vancity continues to do?

12:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancity

Christine Bergeron

In our history, we have not funded oil and gas projects. That's simply due to where we are located and the types of lending that we do. The vast majority of our book is real estate and commercial mortgages, etc.

We don't fund oil and gas projects. We work tremendously with first nations on different projects that they might have. We would look at everything on a one-deal basis to see what it is that they're looking to develop and how we may be able to support them, but if it was purely oil extraction, we would not.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

No. Okay. Thank you.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Morantz.

Now we go to the Liberals and Ms. Chatel, please, for six minutes.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Bergeron, thank you for joining us for this important study.

I often go back to my riding to meet residents. Right now, I am hearing how worried they are by the banking system. They are seeing what is going on in the United States and in Europe and are wondering if Canada's banking sector is still in good health. I tell them that we have one of the best banking systems.

A little earlier, representatives from the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions explained that this was mostly due to the excellent banking regulations that we have here in Canada. The banking sector was recently deregulated in the United States, which has led to the situation we are seeing now. The office also spoke of the need for the financial sector to have a solid regulatory framework for climate-related matters and the risks that are associated with climate change.

Do you agree with what the representatives of the office have said, i.e., that our financial sector is in good health and that the risks linked to climate change are taken into account?