Finance Committee on May 18th, 2023

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Normally, when we think about supply chain efficiency, there are at least three categories that jump off the page. You would think that if we're going to have a more efficient supply chain, we're going to lower our capital costs, we're going to lower our labour costs or we're going to lower the amount of time it takes to move product.

How does interswitching fare on any of those three metrics?

[Éric Harvey]

Interswitching is not an efficient way to move traffic. To use the example of the air mode, we all know that a direct flight is always more efficient than a stopover, let's say, from Calgary to Toronto to Ottawa, or to Winnipeg in your case, for example.

Interswitching, to some degree, is similar to this. If I take the example of traffic that originates on CN and moves to Vancouver, we take the traffic on our lines and we move it all the way to Vancouver on our lines. If we have to interswitch the traffic, what happens is that the traffic originating on CN will be given to CP at an interchange, using CP equipment. CP brings us empty cars. We bring the empty cars to the origin. We bring the loaded cars to the interchange and then CP picks them up to move them to Vancouver.

In normal circumstances, our best estimate there is that you certainly have one to two days of transit time. At the scale of our operation, if you start increasing the transit times, you're cutting capacity—to the point you're making.

Grain is a good example, because more and more we're moving grain in unit trains, which are very efficient moves. We have very good commercial agreements with our customers on that. Frankly, we're—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I'm sorry, but we're out of time. I know we'll go way over if we continue.

Members and witnesses, I just want to let you know that a notice of meeting went out, and it had the list of witnesses. One of the witnesses was not captured, who came into this kind of late. We have her here with us today.

Ms. Frederica Wilson, I apologize. I did not recognize you under the Federation of Law Societies of Canada, so members and witnesses, please indulge me for a minute or two.

Ms. Wilson, please let the members know who you are and who you represent, and then we'll get right back into our second round of questions.

[Frederica Wilson, Executive Director and Deputy Chief Executive Officer, Policy and Public Affairs, Federation of Law Societies of Canada]

Thank you very much, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak briefly.

I work with the Federation of Law Societies of Canada. We are the national association of the provincial and territorial regulators of the legal profession, of which the Law Society of Ontario is one.

The fact that we are here as well as the Law Society of Ontario is a testament to the seriousness with which we see the issues that my colleague Cara O'Hagan spoke about before. In short, these are the amendments to the Income Tax Act and to the mandatory disclosure rules. I'm not going to repeat anything that Cara said. I agree with everything she said, and it reflects the position of the Federation of Law Societies.

It is important, however, that I emphasize a couple of things. The first thing I want to say is that we provided you with a written submission on April 25. I commend it to you. It sets out our position more fully.

The second thing is that the goals of the legislation are not at issue for us. We don't have a position on them, but they aren't something we would oppose. Cracking down on tax avoidance or tax evasion is a public good, and we would not quibble with that, but we would say that whatever means the government adopts to accomplish that goal must be done in a way that is both constitutional and respectful of the principles of fundamental justice that Ms. O'Hagan spoke about.

I listened today to the other witnesses here, and I think we have a tough job representing the regulators of lawyers, legal professionals, Quebec notaries and Ontario paralegals. We don't often get a sympathetic ear, so I want to stress one thing. The principles of fundamental justice exist for the protection of the people of Canada. They don't exist for the protection of lawyers. They are fundamental to our system of justice.

Ms. O'Hagan referred to the decision of the Supreme Court of Canada in the case that the Federation of Law Societies brought involving the proceeds of crime legislation. The judgment makes quite clear—there are some eloquent quotes, some of which are included in our brief, but I won't go into them—that these principles are pillars of our system of justice.

When you consider the position that we are advocating today, please keep those matters in mind.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you very much, Ms. Wilson, and welcome. We're glad to have you here.

Members and witnesses, we're moving into our second round.

We're starting with Mr. Morantz, please, for five minutes.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Wilson, most of my questions, if not all, will be directed to you. I want to let you know that we had two food bank representatives here last night, Mr. Hetherington and Ms. Nicholls, and they painted a pretty terrifying picture.

Before I get into that picture and ask you about your experiences, I want to say for the record that we voted for the grocery rebate, contrary to statements made at this committee meeting a few minutes ago. I wanted you to know that.

Mr. Hetherington, in particular, said a number of really terrifying things. He said, “Let me be very clear—we are in a crisis,” and, “The Daily Bread Food Bank and food banks all across the city are at a breaking point”.

Would you agree with those statements?

[Rachael Wilson]

Absolutely, I would agree with my colleague in Toronto.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

They also said that first-time users are at an all-time high. Would you agree with that statement?

[Rachael Wilson]

We continue to see people using food banks who haven't had to use them in many years, as well as newcomers to Canada and new people who are accessing food banks.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

He said that in Toronto, before the pandemic, there were about 65,000 food bank users a month. Now, there are 270,000 users a month.

Is that consistent with your experience?

[Rachael Wilson]

We saw an increase of about 30% over last year and, as I said, 86% over 2019. Our visit numbers are 400,000 a year.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

The reason I'm pointing this out is that if you listen to government members, they'll tell you Canadians have never had it so good. They'll say, “Look at all the programs we've created.”

The real-life reality on the ground, what we've really learned, is far different.

I'll take you through some other things the food bank representatives said. They said many of their clients pay 100% of their income just for housing.

Is that something that you have any knowledge of or experience with?

[Rachael Wilson]

We don't have direct numbers on that here, but we know that the majority of the people we serve are living in private rentals right now, because they can't get into affordable housing, so they're spending a significant amount more on housing.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Ms. Nicholls said that 5% of Mississaugans use food banks, which I thought was just a stunning number. I'm not asking you if that's the same in Ottawa, but it doesn't sound like Canadians have never had it so good, from what I've been hearing.

This is an interesting one. Both of them said that the grocery rebate will not help. What's your view of that?

[Rachael Wilson]

We are always pleased to see when money is put into the pockets of Canadians, and it is really important to ensure that people have access to those funds that directly impact their ability to purchase things when they want and where they want. However, we recognize that for the majority of people accessing food banks, that fund will probably not go towards groceries. It will, in fact, go towards housing, hydro and utilities.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Mr. Hetherington also rang the alarm bell on the unemployment rate being so low. He said the unemployment rate is next to zero, but food bank usage has never been as high. He said that what keeps him up at night is what if things go sideways. What if the unemployment rate goes up? What if we slip into a recession? His food bank, he says, will be broke in a year and a half. They are depleting their reserves that fast.

I'm wondering if you have the same worries.

[Rachael Wilson]

We absolutely have the same worries. As I mentioned before, the numbers after a recession went up again, and they did not come back from the 2008 recession. We have significant concerns about the sustainability of this system right now, when we are serving people one, two, sometimes three times a month. Some are receiving almost a full month's worth of food. We cannot sustain that at this increased level.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

My last question for you would be this: If Canadians had their take-home pay increased a little, even marginally, through a tax reduction or something like that, do you think that would help the situation?

[Rachael Wilson]

More money into the pockets of Canadians is always a bonus, but we recognize that about 60% of the people accessing food banks here in Ottawa are actually on some form of social assistance.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I'm sorry, but I have one more question on that point, by the way. The other thing they said—and this was really stunning—was that at the Daily Bread Food Bank, the number of people who were using the food bank and who derived their income from employment doubled from 15% to 33%, in a time when the government is telling us that Canadians have never had it so good. These are the working poor, who are having to come to food banks.

Are you seeing a spike with those people coming as well?

[Rachael Wilson]

We are, unfortunately. We've seen a 37% increase in the number since 2019.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Those are all my questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Morantz. Now we're going to the Liberals and Mr. Baker, please, for five minutes.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks, Chair, and thanks to all the witnesses for being here today.

I'd like to start with a question to Ms. Wilson, and then move to one or two of the other folks who are with us.

Ms. Wilson, when I hear untruths spoken, I often can't help but bite my tongue in this line of work. In this particular case, the colleague from the Conservatives several times during the exchange with you suggested that people on the government side are saying that Canadians have never had it so good. That's not true. I have to say that for the folks who are watching at home, but also for your sake.

All of us represent communities where people are struggling. We're approached for help by those people who are struggling, and we've visited our local food banks. We know what people are going through. Every colleague I know, at least on the Liberal side, on the government side, spends a tremendous amount of time trying to figure out and advocate for things that will help those people.

We're on the same page, but I'm not going to allow untruths to be spoken consistently and to besmirch the reputations of folks who are working really hard on the same issues that you're working very hard on and care about.

On that note, Ms. Wilson, you said something earlier that I wanted to pick up on in your response to one of the other members, when you spoke about your desire to see food banks eliminated. I certainly share that goaI. Minister Freeland was at the committee the other day, and she said something similar.

Can we talk about that? How do we go about doing that?

[Rachael Wilson]

At the Ottawa Food Bank we recognize that food is often what brings people to the door. When they come to a food bank we need to connect them with other resources and supports in the community that help them move out of poverty. We have set up programs with wraparound supports, with our agencies right across the city. These agencies are about getting people access to employment, language skills, child care, whatever it may be; and often what we are seeing right now are health care and mental health supports. Food banks are truly becoming community-based organizations. We see them as part of the solution to help move people out of poverty.