Finance Committee on Oct. 20th, 2026

[Stephen Fuhr, Liberal, Kelowna, BC]

I would echo your comments. They are very important. To put a number on it, they represent about 40%, depending on whom you talk to, of the total economic output of this effort. I used to operate in this space, so I appreciate the work that has been done so far.

The defence industrial strategy focused on removing barriers for SMBs and SMEs. A good example is capital. When you operate in this space, it is very difficult to get capital. BDC got $6 billion, and the regional development agencies got a lot of money. There are more opportunities to help SMBs and SMEs in this space when we have a one-stop shop for defence procurement.

Industry engagement is also super important. We have done an unprecedented amount of industry engagement, which allows us to figure out where everybody lives. Where we can help focus them, we do. The ITB policy often serves small to medium businesses very well. We now have the Defence Investment Agency administering the ITB policy, so we can help the small to medium-sized businesses there.

I've done a number of trade missions—I did one to South Korea and I did one to Germany—and we took businesses of all sizes with us to include the SMEs and the SMBs. They're very important. Removing the barriers that prevent them from participating and having one place to interact is massively important, and I've been getting good feedback that it's been very helpful.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much for your answer.

Let's continue in that vein.

You mentioned BDC, the Business Development Bank of Canada. I had the chance to meet with people from BDC on another committee, and a question I asked them was how businesses were adapting to the current market. I spoke to an old client I had a few years back. He told me that, not that long ago, if his business made screws that could be used to build aircraft that could possibly be used for defence, BDC would not have given him funding for the project. Now there's billions of dollars in funding for defence, so I see it as positive.

How are you going to keep encouraging BDC to stay flexible and agile when it comes to small and medium-sized businesses, to give them the much-talked-about predictability they need for future investments? The businesses I was referring to are going to have to make major changes to their equipment and production lines.

How do you plan to advance your efforts with government agencies like BDC?

[Stephen Fuhr, Liberal, Kelowna, BC]

There are a number of ways we can do that.

We talk to industry a lot, and we're encouraging the big Canadian OEMs, like De Havilland, Bombardier and CAE, to reevaluate their supply chains. The Government of Canada buys finished goods. We don't buy nuts and bolts. Those things are important, but we buy finished goods.

Often, unless you're talking smaller-value procurements—and I have some good news for you there—it's getting the SMEs and SMBs in the door with the supply chain. Our Canadian companies, and even the foreign companies that are in Canada and do a lot of business here, are very good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Secretary. That concludes the time.

Mr. Garon, you may go ahead. You have two and a half minutes.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, I understand the need to centralize decision-making. We know the procurement process has long been problematic. Four ministers were involved, if I'm not mistaken. As you know, I'm the member for Mirabel, and people raised this with me. They found the process to be complicated, and I won't deny all the progress that's been made to streamline the decision-making process. However, when we saw the structure, because we have this bill before us, we did some checking. We found out that not a single NATO or Five Eyes country had ever instructed a Crown corporation to do what you want a Crown corporation to now do.

Why is Canada taking an approach none of its allies use for procurement?

[Stephen Fuhr, Liberal, Kelowna, BC]

First, I might bring the CEO in, because I think he would have a different opinion.

I'll start off by saying that all of the companies that I've talked to would certainly rather have a commercial contract than a government contract. This agency is going to be much better equipped to do commercial contracting where it can. Mr. Guzman will be better able to speak to that.

I think the reality is the exact opposite of what you're saying here—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

What you're basically saying is that, with Bill C‑40, you're changing the structure because businesses prefer not having contracts with the government. That means that businesses prefer government contracts in the other Five Eyes and NATO countries, our allies, but not here. Sorry, but I have trouble believing that. I also have trouble believing this is going to be cost-effective.

Would you mind reminding the committee how much Mr. Guzman makes?

[Stephen Fuhr, Liberal, Kelowna, BC]

I'll just reiterate what I was saying. I think the Crown corporation's more commercial-minded business practices will be well—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Secretary of State, I have 20 seconds left.

What's Mr. Guzman's salary? It's public information, but I can't remember. Is it possible that it's twice as much as the prime minister makes? We're talking about making government functions more efficient. That's what you're selling with this bill.

[Stephen Fuhr, Liberal, Kelowna, BC]

He is on the call here. You're welcome to ask him what his compensation package is.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

When he's a minister, I'll ask him. Right now, I'm asking you. You should be glad.

[Stephen Fuhr, Liberal, Kelowna, BC]

Right, but Treasury Board, I will say broadly—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Garon. You're out of time.

Secretary, that concludes the time. Thank you.

Now it's Mr. Lefebvre's turn for five minutes.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska—des-Sources, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

We can't talk about the armed forces today without holding in our hearts the entire Canadian Armed Forces family. I join my colleagues in extending my deepest condolences to the families and colleagues of the victims.

Madam Chair, when I was a firefighter, I tragically lost a colleague when we were responding to a call. When something like that happens, you can't stop doing your job. Today, I am especially thinking about the colleagues of the armed forces members who lost their lives. They had to keep doing their jobs then, and they have to keep doing them now. The next few weeks, months and years are going to be difficult. I urge them to seek the help they need and to not be afraid to talk about it with people. It's an extremely difficult time that stays with you forever. I also want to thank my fellow firefighters, the paramedics and everyone who responded during the tragedy.

Thank you for being here today, Mr. Secretary of State. The Defence Investment Agency has significant discretion when it comes to defence and national security needs. It doesn't have to use a competitive process, so it can award private contracts. Earlier my colleague Carlos Leitão, whom I have great respect for, said he was worried about the potential for corruption. I'm also very worried.

Have you heard about Maritime Launch Services and the contract to lease land in Nova Scotia?

[Stephen Fuhr, Liberal, Kelowna, BC]

I have very high-level.... We're working with a number of procurements. If we were talking about any particular one, I would have come more prepared to talk about it, but we're talking about the process. Have I heard of them? Yes, I have.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska—des-Sources, QC]

Maritime Launch Services pays $13,500 a year to the Government of Nova Scotia to lease provincial land. Then it leased the land back to the federal Liberal government for $20 million a year for 10 years. That's $200 million. If that's not corruption, I don't know what is.

When it comes to the government and its desire to give the Defence Investment Agency discretionary authority, I share my Liberal colleague's concern about potential corruption.

Mr. Secretary of State, are you going to put the necessary safeguards in place to prevent abuses like the Maritime Launch Services contract?

I have three other brief questions for you.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Go ahead, Mr. Lavoie.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

With all due respect to my colleague, whom I hold in high regard, we are talking about Bill C‑31 today, not that. I would appreciate it if the member would stick to Bill C-31.

Thank you.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Lavoie.

Go ahead, Mr. Garon.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Madam Chair, my colleague Mr. Lefebvre is talking about procurement. What Mr. Lavoie just did is called obstruction. He is trying to impede an opposition member in their duties, and it should not be tolerated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Garon.

Go ahead, Mr. Lefebvre.

[Éric Lefebvre, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska—des-Sources, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to get back to my concern. I'm talking about a current example. I'm concerned about what will happen with this agency. In the case at hand, the Maritime Launch Services case, I've been asking who signed the contract and who negotiated it. My question is simple. In cases of this nature, will we be able to find out who signed the contracts and who negotiated them?

I'm currently unable to get any answers. When I ask whether the minister was aware of the negotiations, I don't get an answer. I wouldn't want to go through the same thing when the agency awards contracts. Will I be able to find out who signed them and who negotiated them, and whether the minister was aware of the process?

[Stephen Fuhr, Liberal, Kelowna, BC]

I think we're here to talk about process, but at a very high level. We don't have all the procurements right now. This isn't even our procurement per se, so I couldn't speak to it anyway, but I want to circle around to what I think you're getting at.

Procurement integrity is very important to the government, and it always has been. There are safeguards in there to ensure that vendor performance is monitored, and if there are vendor issues, the government has tools at its disposal to deal with them.