Fisheries Committee on Oct. 5th, 2006

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Well, I don't know what we need, but we need something here. In fact, we're doing it mostly right, but we can't convince the world that it's mostly right.

[Dr. Alice Crook]

There are another couple of points that are relevant, but I don't know if they're any good in trying to explain things.

The method we're talking about, which is the stunning and then chucking and then bleeding, are consistent with abattoir practices that are used worldwide. They use stun guns to cause irreversible unconsciousness, followed by death. So that's consistent with abattoir practices.

As well, one of the references we referred to in our report is the 2000 panel on euthanasia, which was created by the American Veterinary Medical Association. It's the standard that's used worldwide for methods of euthanasia in all different species of animals. It says that physical methods such as a blow to the head can be humane in an animal with a thin cranium, like a young pig, which is the example they use.

So these are consistent with scientific standards, but there's still the whole matter of, as you say, public perception.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Mr. Matthews, do you have a short question? We have a bit of time here.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Yes, I have just a short question, Mr. Chairman. I realize we're pushing the time allowed.

I want to thank our witnesses for coming.

Dr. Caraguel, on the recommendations, I noticed that one you are recommending is a reduction, I guess, in the speed and competitiveness of the hunt through management. My impression is that there's a limited window of opportunity for sealers to get out and get their allocation. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's at least what I think.

So how do you suggest we slow down the speed and the competitiveness through management? Do we spread the hunt out over a longer period of time? How do we deal with it?

[Dr. Charles Caraguel]

I'm a young guy, and I don't have so much experience, but one of the things that surprised me is this idea of a general quota or a collective quota. I was thinking about the fact that if we have an individual quota per boat, each boat is going to take more time to kill the animals. Let's say that there are 1,000 seals per boat to kill, so it is going to take several days to pick up the good animals and take the time to do the proper job in the proper manner. But if you are in competition with your neighbour or your brother on another boat, you know that if you don't kill as many seals as he does in a short period of time, you're not going to make as much money as your neighbour.

So all these guys are always rushing. And at the front, sometimes the seal season is just one day long. I don't know why we call it a season, because it's a seal day. Really, it's just a rush, and when I'm doing something in a rush, I always make mistakes. I think that probably if people had less stress on their shoulders and less pressure on their shoulders to kill as many seals as possible--that's the idea of the competition--we would reduce the mistakes.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Just so I understand again, you're saying that the mad rush is to get the quota.

[Dr. Alice Crook]

It is to get as much of their share of the quota as they can.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

I thought, as well, that there was probably some consideration that the seals weren't going to be around on the ice for a sustained period of time. But maybe I'm wrong about that. Do you know what I'm saying? What you're saying makes perfect sense if indeed sealers could take more time and still get their quota. That's what it's about. It's about making money. So they're in this mad rush for everybody to get out and fill the boats up and get in and out. But if there is room and time to hunt over a longer period of time, it would seem to make perfect sense. So that's where the management aspect of it comes in.

Have you had any response at all from the department on that, or has anyone indicated that they'd like to stretch it out a bit longer?

[Dr. Charles Caraguel]

They say that the sealers are never going to accept this offer, because what they like, like playing poker or going to the casino, is being ready to win the jackpot. Sometimes they have good seasons, sometimes they don't have good seasons, but most of them know where to get the seals. So if they can get more seals, it's just a rush to a goal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you.

Mr. Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Good afternoon. I really appreciated your presentation. There are some points I would like to understand better, especially those made by Dr. Caraguel.

You mentioned earlier that as a European, from France, you had roughly the same initial reaction as many people seeing a video, image or anti-sealing propaganda for the first time. You also said that you had changed your mind to some extent after seeing a more rational analysis.

I come up against people in Europe and elsewhere, and in Canada too, to some extent, who need convincing. I would like to understand the details of your personal journey a bit better. That might help me in dealing with other people who do not agree with me on the seal hunt. What was the turning point for you?

[Dr. Charles Caraguel]

It's quite simple. The main consideration, which is very important, is the anatomical data on the thickness of seal skulls.

I looked at dozens of young seal skulls in which the bones are so thin that I could break them with my bare hands. In contrast, I would have a much harder time breaking the skull bones of another animal, another carnivorous land animal like a dog or any other animal of approximately the same size. Using a hakapik is truly very effective; it does the job quickly and directly.

Another aspect of the seal hunt that is truly very important and has to be considered, is the extreme and dangerous conditions in which sealers hunt. I was blown away by the skill of the sealers, who hopped from one small ice floe to the next with only a few seconds to spare before the pieces threatened to overturn and throw them into the water where they would ultimately have died within a couple of minutes.

I thought they could use a pistol to skill the animal, which would be far less violent. You would not see any video of big and totally ungainly arm movements. But the danger in carrying a firearm on your belt or in your hand while hopping from one small ice floe to the next would be yet another obstacle for the sealer, who already works in a very hostile environment. What more, the hakapik can help a sealer catch a piece of ice and in the process, get out of fairly dangerous situations.

I think it's a good compromise. You also have to consider the cost of killing. It's a commercial hunt, so if the cost of killing is high, the sealer will not make any profit. In my view, the cost effectiveness ratio of the method employed is truly optimized under such extreme conditions

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

But what brought your thinking to this point today, unlike your first impression? What was the turning point? What brought that about?

[Dr. Charles Caraguel]

I think the turning point was when I saw a study that was done — and that seems shocking — on an anesthetized seal on which an electroencephalogram was done. Brain activity was being monitored. They struck the seal with a hakapik and found that after the first blow, the EEG reading was zero, meaning that the skull was completely damaged and brain activity had ceased.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

All right.

Now then, are there any alternatives to the hakapik? You and Dr. Crook mentioned that a public relations campaign was being conducted, in some fashion. I have been hearing about air rifles and all kind of things, but is there an alternative?

[Dr. Alice Crook]

I can understand your question, but I need to answer in English.

It's not possible, as far as we are aware, for the same reasons Charles just gave about the safety of using any kind of handgun with the conditions of the ice. But the other thing is that even in using the rifle, we feel—and this reflects current marine mammal regulations—that the sealers should all have a hakapik on the boat in case there is a shot that leaves a seal wounded but not dead, and they therefore need to have a hakapik available to complete the killing. It is the most efficient and humane method, and it seems kind of crazy to try to find something else when it works very well.

[Dr. Charles Caraguel]

I think that is an issue that should clearly be considered and certainly be assigned to a group of engineering specialists. Once again, how are sealers going to react? Obviously, if it is a requirement, sealers will accept it.

The seal hunt has been around for some time. I think it's in people's nature to give enough thought to ways of improving and perfecting a method. I believe the air rifle idea has already been suggested and certainly tested, and hunters reverted to a different method.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

You and I both know what is going on currently in Europe; there is a renewed debate in the European Union over old videos, etc.

I get the feeling that regardless of whether the hakapik is allowed or not, for purely esthetic reasons, ultimately, opponents of the hunt are going to keep trying and won't stop until the seal hunt is no more. The anti-sealing propaganda campaign still uses images of the whitecoat. And yet we stopped hunting whitecoats a very long time ago.

Do you feel the same about this as I do?

[Dr. Charles Caraguel]

For animal welfare associations, the seal hunt is pretty much a perfect opportunity because it lasts only a few days a year. So it is something they can see coming well in advance. They can set up their itinerary, plan their travel, buy their plane tickets, etc. The hunt also takes place in areas accessible by helicopter from Prince Edward Island. You can reach the area in 15 or 20 minutes to observe the seal hunt.

Having participated in a number of animal documentaries, I realize that the seal hunt is visually a perfect event for video, because you see red on white, blood on ice. In any event, I would be very surprised, even if we were to prove it to them logically that the hunt is respectable, that it is done in an appropriate manner, to see opponents ever accept that idea. Also, given that they make a great deal of money from the hunt, I wonder who would suffer the most if it came to an end.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you very much.

[Dr. Alice Crook]

Can I answer that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Go ahead.

[Dr. Alice Crook]

We're talking about the perception, of course, and as I already mentioned, the IFAW continues to take videos every year, and they do show infractions. In some areas the practices seem to be worse than in others. One of our recommendations is for training and licensing of the sealers. If there were a combination of enforcing the checking for the crushed skulls, the training of sealers so they all knew what they were supposed to do, and the managing of the quota to reduce the competitiveness, then there would be less of that kind of video footage that's so damaging.

[Dr. Charles Caraguel]

I want to go back to this point. To clarify, we don't say that in the field the hunt is actually 100% humane. It could be humane if it were done properly, but once again this year I've seen animals suffering during the hunt.