Fisheries Committee on Oct. 17th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Mr. Lunney.

I've been very generous with everyone's time in the first round. We are in the second round and they're five-minute rounds. I'm going to try to keep it exactly to the five minutes because we have a number of people who haven't asked questions yet. We'll ask the minister as well to keep his answers as succinct as he possibly can.

Go ahead, Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Welcome, Mr. Minister, and your aides.

When you were responding to Mr. Blais' question on the small craft harbours program, you indicated clearly that there was close to $500 million needed to put the wharves that are the responsibility of the Government of Canada to where they need to be in small craft harbours. And you spoke about the $11 million that was put in.

I would like to be assured that you're aware that there was a motion put through, supported by everybody in the House, including you and the Prime Minister, that $20 million plus $15 million, which is $35 million extra, would go into small craft harbours. Can you assure us that is most likely to happen? Are we sure that it will happen, or is it in doubt?

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I'm not sure which motion the member is talking about, Mr. Chair.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I can explain it to you, Mr. Minister.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I'm just wondering if you're talking about the $20 million we're talking about here this morning or another one.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I'm talking about the motion that was put through the House of Commons that in fact $35 million would be allocated to small craft harbours.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

When?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

It was tabled here and then presented on the floor of the House.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

In relation to our report? The $15 million is certainly news to me in relation to activity.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

But, Mr. Minister, you voted for it yourself.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

That might have been, but again, I'd like to see what you're talking about. I quite clearly remember the $20 million that the government brought forth as a result of the report tabled by this committee, I would say, back in 2002. We brought it up in 2001, but I would say the report was probably tabled in 2002 or maybe late in 2001.

Out of that came $20 million from the then government of which you and the minister were actually a part. I presume the commitment was made by that government. They put in $100 million. I'm not sure what we asked for at the time, but that's what they put in, and the last of it runs out this year.

We have to move forward from there. As I mentioned, we have already put in money and we need a lot more money put in. We have to spend more money on harbours, including a number in Prince Edward Island.

In fact, I visited a number of them this summer. I would say I visited half the facilities on the island. Even though some were fairly well looked after, I would say that a number of the facilities on the island, like facilities everywhere, need a fair amount of expenditure.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

In fact, what you're telling me is that there's no immediate plan to make sure the $35 million, which was voted on in the House on a motion by the Prime Minister and you, goes there. We have no assurance, or I don't even know if it's in your plan to make sure the money goes there.

Looking at the situation, when we need close to $500 million and we're talking about $35 million, the fact of the matter is this. To deal with small craft harbours and the problems we have with wharf repair and dredging, if we don't have that little bit, then it's really a hopeless case. The money must stay there. The committee worked very hard on this and put forward a motion that I think was supported by everybody in the House. It wasn't long ago; it was only a few weeks ago in June that this happened

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Okay. It says here, “As the result of a SCOFO-backed initiative in late May, a motion to significantly increase the small craft harbours budget was presented, debated and voted on in the House of Commons. The vote on June the 6th was unanimously supported by all members.”

I'm not sure of the date of the motion. Was it June 6 of this present year?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

It was June 6 of this year, yes.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

The motion proposed that the budget be increased by at least $35 million.

Okay. I and I think some others thought you were talking about the original one. You're talking about a new motion that was brought forward this year.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

To extend the $20 million.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

To extend the money.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Plus the $15 million that's desperately needed, and plus the $11 million you're talking about that was put in.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

No, no, I fully understand that now, exactly as you said. Nobody would disagree with that, nor would they disagree with the other motions that were put forward and then passed, in some cases, to put all kinds of money into everybody's budget. You have to realize there's only so much money to go around. Once you get your budget, you have certain priorities within your own department.

I say to you, Mr. MacAulay, that one of the problems we have, if you want to talk about the pressures on the new government and my department to move forward, is that we're in the mess we're in because for years enough funding didn't go into that. It's not only the former government. It goes well beyond that. Wharves were let to deteriorate to the point where it'll take $400 million to bring them up to par.

We have to deal with what we have and use every cent we can get our hands on to move forward. If we can get an extra $15 million or if we can get an extra $50 million, we can spend it overnight. You could spend that much in your own province and it wouldn't put a dent in what needs to be done, as you know.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

But what you're telling me is that we don't know that we're getting the $35 million.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

We're going to keep to five-minute rounds, if we can. This one was six.

Mr. Asselin, you've been waiting patiently.

[Gérard Asselin, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the committee.

To my mind, Fisheries and Oceans is a very important department that manages resources and equipment. However, people living in the regions often wonder if the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans is nothing more than an honourary appointee or whether in fact he has responsibilities and a duty to exercise authority and leadership to ensure sound management of the resource and of the fishery, in particular the regional fishery.

Earlier we were discussing problems with respect to small crafts. However, the regions also have to contend with different problems. In my view, the Minister needs to show leadership and exercise his authority over his officials. Often, we're left to wonder who's in charge of making decisions: the Minister or departmental officials.

Let me give you a very specific example. In my riding, there are 45 ground fish fishers between Sheldrake and Natashquan currently under a moratorium. Twenty-one of them have barely managed to hang on. The remaining fishers are on social assistance. They have lost their boats and have had their homes seized. Social assistance has become their last resort. When the previous government was in office, I wrote to the Minister on several occasions. The then minister's chief of staff met with 21 fishers working along the middle North Shore. She witnessed the situation first hand and observed the decline in the community's standard of living. The then Liberal minister issued a temporary crab fishing license to fishers who are currently affected by the ground fish moratorium.

It wasn't as if they had won the lottery. They were issued a license to catch 8,000 pounds of crab, which represents $10,000 for these small fishers. However, it did help a few of them stay afloat. Diesel fuel and labour costs are increasing, like everything else. There is no shortage of a market or of resources.

However, elections were called and a new government took office. I contacted you several times and urged you to allow these 21 small fishers on the Middle North Shore to keep the licenses allowing them to take 8,000 pounds of snow crab and thus hang on for the duration of the moratorium. Unfortunately, officials decided otherwise. They probably advised you on the decision not to renew for this year the licenses to take 8,000 pounds of crab. These licenses had initially been issued as a temporary measure.

A permanent solution to the problem is being sought at both the Sept-Îles and Québec offices. Hopefully a permanent solution will be found but if all we manage to come up with is a temporary solution for the duration of the moratorium, what will happen if the moratorium lasts 20 years? Does the department want to force these small fishers out of business in order to recover their licenses and give them to large crabbers? In my riding, the traditional crabbers account for an annual industry of $800 or $900 million. And yet, this year, the department has awarded them a 25 per cent increase. Small fishers, on the other hand, have had their licenses taken away -- licenses which allowed them to catch 8,000 pounds valued at $10,000.

After much hard work, I had succeeded in wresting this concession from the then Liberal government. Unfortunately, after the election, although I contacted you on several occasions about this matter, as well as Fisheries and Oceans officials, the decision to take away these licenses from the fishers was not reversed.

This year, we expect to lose five or six fishers. When I talk about 21 fishers, I'm talking about 21 proud families with children who want to work and put food on the table. They are not looking for a handout. Unfortunately, these families have had to turn to social assistance. Often, the sole livelihood of small villages along the North Shore is the fishery, the only available resource.

Minister, all I'm asking is that you consider my request and the problems experienced by these families and speak to officials at the Sept-Îles office of Fisheries and Oceans. Martin St-Gelais is also hoping that a decision is made to resolve this situation once and for all. He too wants a permanent solution to this problem to be found.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Mr. Minister, that was a five-minute question, so if we could have a one-minute answer, it would be appreciated.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Chair, I'll give you half a minute and ask Mr. Bevan to zero in on the specific case.

Let me say a couple of things. I think Mr. Asselin has expressed a frustration that many people in the fishery face, in light of what's going on. I also want to tell him I have met twice with the minister of fisheries in Quebec. We are having a major meeting in Quebec in November to try to deal with some of the frustrations.

As for seeing me, if you want to talk to me, it's not a problem, as for Mr. Matthews or Mr. MacAulay or Mr. Blais. You walk across the House any time at all, or see me out in the back. With all of these people we have worked out situations, and we have made us aware of other situations.

Everybody is looking for resources; that's the problem. When some people get hit, are you going to take it from others? Maybe you would in this specific case; there are hundreds of them.

Mr. Bevan, do you want to mention this one? It's something we'll be discussing, I'm sure, when we meet in Quebec.

[David Bevan]

Truly this is a formidable challenge. There aren't enough fish to issue licenses to all of the fishers. We need to come up with another way of meeting this challenge head on and of finding a permanent solution. I think the process outlined by the minister is a sound approach.

Agreements with the crabbers are in place and when we must decrease the quotas, there aren't enough resources to go around. This is currently a major problem, one that affects not only your region, but other Atlantic regions as well.