Fisheries Committee on Oct. 24th, 2006

[Victor Santos-Pedro]

I can only tell you that it's an inspected vessel. Our involvement is that the vessel is an inspected vessel. The vessel was operating....

I can't tell you anything about what the report might contain. Our involvement is that it was an inspected vessel, therefore plans were submitted. Transport Canada approved the plans.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Are you in a position to comment on the ballast system it used, and the controversy surrounding it?

[Victor Santos-Pedro]

No, partly because I don't even know what ballast system was in place.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

That's fine. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

You're out of time, Mr. Simms.

Go ahead, Ms. Bell.

[Catherine Bell, NDP, Vancouver Island North, BC]

I'd like to go back to the last part of my previous question, about costs for fishermen who have aging vessels and who may not be able to modify them to conform to the new regulations. Will there be anything for them in the way of loans or any grants or any kind of assistance so that they can stay in the industry?

For a lot of the fishermen in my area, that's their life, that's their way of life, and they've been doing it for generations. They've inherited boats from past generations. It's sometimes the only thing they know. I'm just wondering if there is any consideration of any kind of support for those people to stay in the industry.

Mr. Bevan, I know you said it may be unfortunate that some of them won't be able to meet the commitments, or meet the standards. I'm just curious to know if any consideration has been given to that aspect of it.

[David Bevan]

I think I made the comment that currently in some fisheries people are not making enough money to cover more than their variable costs. That is the cost of fuel, food, bait, and equipment. They're aren't making enough to recapitalize. They're running older vessels and they don't have the wherewithal to recapitalize them. That's an issue we are looking at in terms of some of these collaborative studies with the provinces and the consultations that are under way in Newfoundland and Labrador and that we are going to have as well in other parts of Atlantic Canada.

In the west we haven't had the same degree of problems in the fisheries, other than the salmon fishery, where we've run ITQ fisheries. There has been reasonable economic performance allowing for recapitalization as required, and it's not the same.

We're not contemplating at this point any kind of assistance program, and certainly not contemplating anything that would look like federal money going to reinvent the fisheries at this point. But there are discussions under way, and we'll have to see where they all end up.

[Catherine Bell, NDP, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Mr. Kamp.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you for the good information. I'm not completely sure what a stability booklet is. Could you enlighten me a little bit on that and tell me how, if at all, it relates to training? I would assume—it seems logical to me at least—that you can have the most stable of all boats, but if you have somebody who doesn't know how to operate it, you're going to be in an unsafe-at-sea situation. Are there any safety requirements or training requirements that are built into the system as it is now?

[Victor Santos-Pedro]

The most important aspect of a stability booklet is in fact how the information in the stability booklet, which can be in a very foreign language to a fisherman, is translated in a manner that it does give the information to the person using it as to the conditions of the vessel in relation to loading, in relation to how the vessel leaves port, how much they can load, where they should put the gear, etc.

We are paying a lot of attention to that aspect in several ways. One is that we're very convinced that regulations alone are not going to reduce the accident rate, and one of the stability aspects is that we are, first of all, trying to educate the naval architects who prepare the stability booklets to make it so that they are explained to the fishermen. We're making it part of the requirement that the naval architect actually explain the booklet to the fishermen. We are putting a standard type of requirement in the stability booklet that will make it simpler to understand what is in there. At the same time, we're also looking, for those who take the training for fishing vessel masters, at having the syllabus reflect the knowledge required to read a stability booklet that is made accessible for all intents and purposes; and we're all very supportive of any training that is related. There is a pilot project, for example, in British Columbia by an organization called Fish Safe BC, in which they have hands-on training of fishermen on stability issues. Many who have been fishing for years leave there saying they have learned something.

We're also looking at those aspects because they are indeed very important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you.

Do you have a quick question? Go ahead.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate that answer. When I first entertained this discussion, I thought you were talking about a standardized booklet on stability, a one-size-fits-all, but what I am hearing here is you are talking about a booklet with standardized features but specific information for a particular vessel.

The quick question I have goes back to the incident related by Mr. Manning, I believe, where a fisherman lost his vessel mid-season and his replacement vessel was two and a half feet too long or something, and he had to saw off a few feet in order to fish his last few weeks. When we establish regulations, is there going to be some flexibility or latitude for recognizing circumstances? In zoning in a municipal environment we have “legal non-conforming”. You might allow somebody to finish his season with a non-conforming vessel that's not dangerous but would allow him to at least complete his season. Could you allow a little bit of flexibility in there, an escape clause, for unusual circumstances?

[David Bevan]

We have some flexibility for the temporary replacement of vessels. I'm not sure of the circumstances that were described there, so I can't specifically respond to that particular case. If vessels are lost, either offshore or inshore, there's some flexibility allowed in terms of replacing those on a temporary basis while you're getting things more permanently worked out.

I'm not sure what happened here. It may have been that he made a purchase of a vessel to permanently replace the other one and had to therefore modify it, but I can't really go back on the specifics there.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

We don't want the regulations to have the effect where people take a course that would actually increase the risk by modifying a vessel and decreasing its stability in order to satisfy a regulation. Anyway, I appreciate there's some flexibility built in.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you.

Committee members, I have one quick question. I'm going to ask you to stay. I want to quickly review this letter, if we could.

To our witnesses, do we have the same vessel length restrictions on the west coast as we have on the east coast?

[David Bevan]

No, we don't have the same vessel restrictions.

Obviously in the gulf it's a 42-foot vessel size for lobster. In Southwest Nova, it's 45 feet. We have 65-foot barriers that are common in the Atlantic. But where you have ITQ fisheries in British Columbia, it's much less of an issue. There's a variety.

The management measures reflect the decisions and choices made by stakeholders and reflect what's needed to try to put the fisheries on an economic basis. When you have ITQs, vessel size isn't really a big issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I'm well aware of the ITQ system.

My question is this. Is there a length restriction for vessels on the west coast?

[David Bevan]

There is for some of the vessels. I'd have to come back with more specifics on that, but for some of the fleets, there would be a size restriction. As I recall, it would be for gillnet fisheries, etc.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Most of the seine fleet in Atlantic Canada is 64 feet 11 inches. Is that the type of size restriction that's on the seine fleet in the west coast?

[David Bevan]

On the seine fleet, I can't recall what it is.

But certainly, for the gillnet fleet, when you have an opportunity to fish salmon, it's an opening of close to 12 hours or whatever, and you have size restrictions on those kinds of fleets.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

My point is this, Mr. Bevan. Without length restrictions on the west coast, has it led to overcapitalization? Have the fishermen spent more money on their vessels, and therefore increased their fishing efforts, and not been able to keep up?

Will they meet it? Although it's not a government regulation, is there a line somewhere that crosses profitability? Although some fishermen may make the mistake of crossing that line, will the majority of them stay underneath it?

[David Bevan]

When you're dealing with salmon, and previously with the herring fishery, for vessel replacement, you couldn't get a bigger boat to replace the one you had. It didn't have a limit. It only said you couldn't go any bigger.

Those are for fisheries where there is an opening. You would have motivation to get a bigger vessel to take maximum advantage of a two-day opening, a one-day opening, 12 hours, or whatever it might be, for things like salmon or herring.

Where you don't have that and you're dealing with ITQs, it's then up to the vessel owners to figure out what they want to do. For those competitive fisheries, there are size limits in B.C. as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you.

To our committee members, has everybody had a chance to read the letter? Do you see what we're asking? There are a couple of questions on hearings the other day with the minister, and they're “hearings” and not “herrings”.

[An hon. member]

They're red herrings.