Fisheries Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I have a few words of greeting before we call the meeting to order. We still have a few members to arrive, but it is ten past nine, and for the sake of starting the meeting somewhat on time, maybe we could get started.

First of all, I'd like to welcome the members from the European delegation here. It is a real treat to have you in Canada. We were certainly well received when we were at the Council of Europe. We appreciated that, and we would like to have a frank, open, and fruitful discussion here today.

If I could, I would propose a slightly different format for our own membership today and for the European delegation. Rather than following our normal speaking order, perhaps we would be better served to have a more bilateral discussion, with perhaps five minutes for the speaker and five minutes for people to answer. We'll try to keep it within a reasonable timeframe, with more leniency going to our guests and less leniency going to our regular members.

I will recognize our members who are here. Then I would ask the leader of the delegation from the European Parliament, Mr. Seán Ó Neachtain, to introduce their members.

We have Bill Matthews, who is our vice-chair; Gerry Byrne; Monsieur Blais; Gérard Asselin, a new member of the committee; Fabian Manning; and James Lunney.

Mr. Ó Neachtain.

[Seán Ó Neachtain, (UEN - Ireland), Parliament of Europe]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With your indulgence, I will ask the members to introduce themselves. I will start with myself.

My name is Seán Ó Neachtain. I'm a member of the European Parliament for the west and northwest of Ireland, and I'm a member of the fisheries committee in the European Parliament. Coming from an island nation, we are very interested in fisheries, so I'm a member of the fisheries committee and of the transport and tourism committee within the European Parliament.

I will start now with Lasse.

[Lasse Lehtinen, (PES - Finland), Parliament of Europe]

Lasse Lehtinen is my name, and I come from Finland. I'm not a member of the fisheries committee. I know absolutely nothing about that.

[Ian Hudghton, (Greens/EFA - United Kingdom), Parliament of Europe]

I'm Ian Hudghton. I represent the fishing nation of Scotland. I'm an SNP member and am also a member of the fisheries committee, and have been for eight years, in the European Parliament.

[Toomas Savi, (ALDE - Estonia), Parliament of Europe]

I am Toomas Savi, coming from Estonia. Estonia is a newcomer in the European Union. I am also not working on the fisheries committee. I am a member of the development committee, so I know something about poverty in Africa.

Nevertheless, Estonia is a sea state, and we have more than a thousand kilometres of coastline. We're not fishing it.

Thank you.

[Agnes Schierhuber, (EPP - Austria), Parliament of Europe]

I'm Agnes Schierhuber from Austria. I'm on the agriculture and rural development committee. As you know, Austria has no seaside.

[Iles Braghetto, (EPP - Italy), Parliament of Europe]

[Witness speaks in Italian]

[Den Dover, (EPP - United Kingdom), Parliament of Europe]

I'm Den Dover, from northwest England. I'm a British Conservative member. I'm on the committees on industry, research and energy, transport and tourism, and also regional development. I'm therefore not a member of the fisheries committee. But it's a very key interest to us, and to my colleague Gary Titley, in the whole northwest, with a large coastline.

[Gary Titley, (PES - United Kingdom), Parliament of Europe]

I'm Gary Titley, also from the northwest of England, but representing the British Labour Party. I'm not on the fisheries committee, but as Den has said, it is a major issue for us, particularly the Irish box.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Welcome. There is translation. English will be on number 1, French on number 2, Italian on number 3, and German on number 4.

With the formalities done, I'll call the meeting to order by Standing Order 108(2), our study on the Canadian seal hunt.

I'd like to remind our guests and my colleagues that as a regular meeting of the standing committee, this meeting is public and is being recorded and transcribed.

Again, welcome. Perhaps we could give you a little outline of our study on the Canadian seal hunt. This committee has studied the seal hunt on a number of occasions. We thought the topic was relevant, given some of the moves of the European Parliament, some of the motions coming before the Parliament.

We spent some time doing a fairly comprehensive study once again that included the front off Newfoundland, the Îles-de-la-Madeleine in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and Nova Scotia. Most members will certainly speak for themselves, but most of our members represent fisheries ridings and have a fairly extensive background in the fishery.

Without further ado I'll invite the chair, Mr. Seán Ó Neachtain, to begin.

[Seán Ó Neachtain]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just before I start, one of our members is detained somewhat, but he will be along. Duarte Freitas, from Portugal, is also a member of the fisheries committee. In his absence, I want to introduce him, because he has some very direct views on fisheries.

As members of the committee with relations with Canada, we're delighted that we have the opportunity to discuss the fisheries issue, because of course, as we mentioned, many of us are on our own fisheries committee. But let me tell you from the start that I believe there's a vast difference between what we discuss, at times, and what might be discussed in other regions on fisheries, because the common fisheries policy is all basic remit within that committee. We are, I might as well say, somewhat critical of the way the common fisheries policy is organized, but it is our policy, and we endeavour to ensure that we keep the fisheries sustainable and that we preserve the stock that we have.

As Gary Titley mentioned, I was only a few days in the European Parliament some years ago when I was entrusted with the arduous task of protecting what we call the “Irish box”, which is a very sensitive spawning grounds in the Atlantic Ocean into which many other member states wanted free access. But we did preserve that somewhat at the time, with the help of everyone in the European Parliament, and I believe now with our commissioner, Commissioner Joe Borg from Malta, we are endeavouring very much to bring about sustainability and preserve the fishing stock that is in our seas.

It's not an easy task, because the stock is diminishing. We have to understand that if we do not act and curtail overfishing, and particularly curtail the amount of bad fishing habits--let's put it that way--that we have brought about over the years, we will have no stock into the future to fish with. In that regard, we often come to a misunderstanding, let's say, with some member states.

I would like to point out that the legal remit for fisheries is the responsibility of the Council of Ministers, who annually come together—and that will happen now quite soon, in the month of December—and agree on the quotas and the TAC, or total allowable catch, and the quotas that go to each representative member state. Of course, that has an historical consequence in that when the quotas and TACs were originally given out in Europe, it was based on the capacity of each member state's fishing fleet at the time. Things have emerged and changed since, but there is no opportunity to give any change to that quota and TAC, because it must be proportionate to the original division that occurred because of the member states' capacity to fish—in other words, the tonnage and available boat capacity of the member states.

So that has been a cantankerous issue since. For example, a member state such as Ireland—and I'll only give my own parochial view—has 11% of the seas, but we have only something less than 4% of the action. We're not very comfortable with that, but it's a sharing policy and we have to understand that we have to work within that. But the main concern at the moment is the sustainability of fish stocks, and that will be.

I know you have raised the sealing issue. We would not be as au fait as you are with that particular area of fishing, so we look forward to having a very good exchange of views on that. It is true that a declaration has been signed in the European Parliament and that is the position of that declaration at the moment, but it's merely a declaration. It is a request of the commission to report to Parliament and the Council of Ministers, and of course the deliberations of that report will be seen into the future.

But the situation as it stands is that I cannot remember that we dealt in any great depth in the fisheries committee with the subject of sealing. So we look very much forward to your conclusions and to your deliberations on that.

We have also in our presence a member, Ian Hudghton, who is longer on the fisheries committee longer than I am, and we have selected him as our spokesman here today. So if you don't mind, I'll hand over to Ian.

[Ian Hudghton]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm not here as our selected spokesperson to promote the written declaration that was signed by a majority of members of the European Parliament. That's partly because I haven't signed it, but I'm not surprised that a majority of members did.

To be precise, it calls on the European Commission to draft a regulation to ban the import, export, and sale of all harp and hooded seal products. It doesn't specifically say we call on Canada to end the seal hunt, because that's not within our power of remit. I presume in some ways it could be considered that a ban on the trade and products could be, although that's a matter of opinion, I know.

I'm not surprised that a majority of members signed this declaration, because it was accompanied by a very high-profile and well-organized campaign of pressure, shall I say, or contact being made with members of the European Parliament. In my particular case, and I suspect we were all in the same position, I had hundreds of contacts from my own constituents demanding that I sign this written declaration, and these requests from constituents were very often accompanied by some of the graphic images that I'm sure you're very familiar with in terms of the brochures, and websites, and so on of animal welfare organizations. That's really the context in which that declaration gained the necessary majority of signatures.

As I did yesterday, I'll raise this particular newspaper, which is from last Saturday in Scotland. The Scotsman newspaper's front page says “From the killing fields of Canada to the shops of Scotland”, with coloured pictures of a young looking seal about to be thumped with a club. That is the context as far as our constituents are concerned, although I have to say that The Scotsman, at least, in the two-page story that was inside the paper, did devote a quarter of a page to the viewpoint from Canada.

One of the reasons I didn't sign it, apart from the fact that I'd been to Newfoundland and Labrador before and had had a certain amount of background on the other side of the story, is that I knew we were coming here on this particular mission, and I am here again--and I think we're all here--in full listening mode in terms of hearing not just your views but those directly involved in the industry's views, so that we can properly weigh up the evidence that was put to us by those who promoted this written declaration with the views of those directly involved in communities affected and involved in the hunt or the harvest of seals.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Mr. Hudghton.

[Seán Ó Neachtain]

Mr. Chair, just one more member has asked for the floor on our side, with your indulgence.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Absolutely.

[Seán Ó Neachtain]

Gary Titley.

[Gary Titley]

Thank you, Chairs.

I indicated I'm not a member of the fisheries committee, so I don't want to make any statement, but I would like to ask some questions, if I may, for clarification from the Canadian side.

The killing of the whiteback seals is illegal now, but my understanding is that as soon as they lose their white fur, they're open to be killed. Is it correct to say that some 95% of harp seals are less than three months old when they're killed? This is a species that takes a long time to come to sexual maturity, so therefore it's quite difficult to judge the long-term effects of killing things so young.

I've seen figures suggesting that although there has been an increase in the harp seal population since the 1970s, that is an increase on a very low level from before. It's been suggested to me that at the current approach the harp seal population will be reduced by some 70% in the next 15 years. I wonder if you would comment on that.

Also, in a discussion we had last night, it was suggested to me that the seal hunt is still very important economically, yet figures I've seen suggest that in Newfoundland and Labrador it only represents about 0.5% of GDP, which compares very little with fishing and tourism, for example. So how big an industry is this, and how really important is it? It was suggested to me that a lot of fishermen rely on the sealing for their income, but I've seen other figures that suggest their income from sealing is only about 5%; it's not a huge amount. That may well be a crucial 5%, but I need to get a feeling for that.

We've had statements from the Canadian government saying that the seal hunt is carefully monitored, but I've also seen figures that suggested that this year in the Gulf of St. Lawrence the quota was exceeded by 40%, so it rather suggests there wasn't that close a monitoring.

Perhaps you could give me some answers to those questions. It would also be helpful to know where exactly are the markets for seal products. Where do they go? What exactly are they used for?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Okay. I'm going to give a quick answer to that on behalf of the committee, if I may, and then we'll give some of our other members an opportunity to speak.

Those are all good and legitimate questions, but you should be aware that in the low cycle of the harvest in the early 1970s, there were about 1.9 million seals in the northeast Atlantic. Today, by conservative estimates, we expect there are about 5.9 million seals. Many people will tell you there are more seals than that.

I will give you a quick example of my own. I used to work in the offshore oil field as a driller in the offshore in Sable Island, which is an island about 225 miles off the coast of Nova Scotia. When we first went out there in 1980--it also has horses on it--we used to always count the horses as we flew over in a helicopter, and you could literally count the seals on the northeast spit and the southwest spit. Eight years later, it was crowded for two miles on either spit, because that was the down point of the harvest. Those are primarily harps and greys. There are some hooded. There was a huge explosion in the population. That explosion was mainly because we were rebuilding our markets for seal products around the world, and it was simply at a low point in the harvest. But it was an exponential increase in the amount of seals.

On the east coast in Nova Scotia, if we think about grey seals for a moment, they've also adapted to fishing practices, and when you talk about the amount of fish a seal eats, you've got to multiply that by five, because they eat only 20%. The seal only eats the stomach and the soft internal organs of the fish. It'll rip the skin off the fish, because the skin's full of oil and it's very fatty. So whatever the estimate is on the amount of fish that is eaten, multiply that by five.

The other issue you spoke about is percentage of GDP. That's a convenient number found by a bunch of NGOs who are against the seal hunt. Quite frankly, in any of your ridings, if you took a group of individuals involved in any resource sector and said that an addition of $15,000 or $20,000 to their income in a very low employment area wasn't important, you would be mistaken.

Of course, in the overall economy of the country and in the economy of the province, for instance, in Newfoundland and Labrador, it is a small portion. For those individuals, it may be 50% of their income, it may be 30% of their income, but it is a significant portion of their income.

I see some of our observers smiling at that statement, but they've obviously never tried to live on $15,000 or $20,000 a year or less. But if you live in the outports of Newfoundland or in a coastal community in Nova Scotia, dependent upon employment insurance for most of the year, your income from sealing is extremely important.

Forty per cent of the quota exceeded: I would be shocked at that statement. I don't know where it comes from. We have allowed for an increase in the hunt over the last several years. That increase has been governed on the side of conservation. As I've pointed out, we went from a herd of 1.8 million or 1.9 million animals in the early 1970s to a herd of 5.9 million or 6 million today. So obviously the overall health and sustainability of the herd has never been threatened.

Your final question was on the beaters. The beaters are young animals without question, but they're fully weaned and have been abandoned by their mothers. So they're on the ice independent of any parent to depend on or to be fed by. They simply lie on the ice and live off their fat reserves until they're able to enter the water. They are forced by starvation to enter the water and learn to fish on their own, and it's instinctive. They're not taught to fish. They're simply abandoned by their mothers.

That's a quick rundown. My membership will have me hanged on the yardarm if I speak too much, so I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Bill Matthews, our vice-chair and first speaker.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to welcome our visitors. It's nice to see you here, and it's nice to have this discussion.

I just want to make a couple of comments in reaction to what a couple of your speakers have said.

I want to make it clear from the very outset that we're all very concerned about sustainable fisheries--very, very concerned. It's one of our major objectives as a committee and for me as a member of Parliament representing a predominantly fishing riding in Newfoundland and Labrador. So sustainable fisheries is a big priority for us.

Of course, very closely connected, directly linked to sustainable fisheries, is sustainable communities and sustaining our rural populations. A big factor in that is a rapidly growing seal herd that consumes a tremendous amount of fish resource of some type, whether it's cod, or crab, or shrimp, or whatever. It's one humungous amount of fish resource.

I'm not saying that seals are the only factor in our diminishing fish stocks, but it's certainly a very important factor with the amount of fish resource that they consume.

The gentleman to my left talked about sexual maturity of seals, about taking them so young and how long it takes them to become sexually mature. If you look at a seal herd that has gone from two million to six million over the last decade or so, it's obvious that there is a lot of sexual maturity amongst the seal herd. I don't think that's a matter of major concern, that they're not sexually mature enough to reproduce.

Science tells us that a seal herd of two million animals is sustainable. We're now at six million, according to science. That's only harp seals, by the way. That's not including the grey seals that our chairman alluded to, or the hooded seals, or the harbour seals. They're in addition to the six million harp seals that we say are in the ocean today, consuming these fish resources.

There are a number of issues. We've had a moratorium on cod since 1991 or 1992. We've taken some tough measures in this country and in my province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Again, I repeat, one of the biggest struggles we have is sustaining and maintaining our rural way of life, and managing the seal herd in a humane fashion is vitally important to rebuilding our stocks.

Our chairman has alluded to income. If any of us in this room--any of us, not only the politicians but the staff and everyone else--had to try to live on what those people live on, they would consider their income from sealing to be very significant. If you were to lose a quarter or more of a $20,000 to $25,000 income, it would mean having butter for your bread or none, or maybe not having any bread.

So that's the battle, and that's why we have chosen this study.

There are two reasons. One reason is the impact of the seal population on fish resources--and we feel that we owe it to the world, by the way, to rebuild those fish stocks. It's not just Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, Atlantic Canadians and Canadians. We think we owe it to this great world to rebuild that tremendous protein resource that has been there for generations.

I think I'll conclude my remarks there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Mr. Matthews.

Perhaps we'll go in the usual order and try to give everybody a chance, and then if there are some more bilateral discussions, we'll enter them.

Mr. Blais, please.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you very much.

As a politician or an MP, when I have to speak out about some issue, I think it is good to proceed as follows. It is important to look at both sides of the picture. I would even go so far as to say that it is important to look at all three sides, not only the front and the back but also the thickness. Sometimes, this gives us a completely new insight and helps us to make a decision.

I applaud your initiative. I am glad that you are taking the time to listen to us and to exchange information with the seal hunters who will be telling you more about the situation in a few minutes.

In my opinion, the declaration that was signed by a majority of MPs basically flouts all the rules. In fact, they have forgotten to look into the situation before solemnly declaring that all products of the seal hunt are banned. It looks like they are jumping to a conclusion without considering the consequences.

Unfortunately, we are facing a demagogic disinformation campaign about everything that is going on. Seal pups have not been slaughtered since 1982, but the image of a seal pup is of great help to the abolitionists' campaign, the humane society and the International Fund for Animal Welfare or IFAW. It helps them collect more than 3 or $4 million. for instance, for the Magdalen Islands. I would even say that it allows them easily to gather tens of millions of dollars. We should find out exactly how much is gathered through this campaign. The campaign uses pictures of seal pups. Personally, I was appalled when I saw Brigitte Bardot who came back to the battle line recently, and presented a poster portraying a real baby lying in its blood on the ice.

What does this mean? This means that they are trying to portray seals as humans, despite the fact that baby seals are being killed and not human babies. Do we hear about baby cows, baby chickens and so on? Why are they projecting this kind of image? The sad fact is that they are simply resorting to demagogy and disinformation.

Clearly, we are dealing with an outdoor abattoir. What would be the effect of images of outdoor abattoirs if they showed chickens being slaughtered according to the current methods, if they showed all the animals, and especially pigs... Pigs are less attractive, less compelling. However, seal pups have a very compelling image, unfortunately. This is the situation we are facing. Let us look at things the way they really are. This is the kind of situation we are facing.

This is why your initiative is important. I applauded and I am very glad to be here today. I know that we intend to go ahead with this. And so, you will respectfully present to us what you have been told or the way you see this issue. We, in turn, will endeavour to give you as much information as we can. Then, you will make a decision, but it will be an informed decision.

That is the crucial part of the debate. We must debate this issue, let us remove the masks and shed some light on the facts. It will be up to you to accept or reject what I say, but at least you will have heard me out. We really must emphasize this.

Let me now turn to the seal hunt in the Magdalen Islands, in my riding with a population of 13,000. For these 13,000 persons, the seal hunt is more than just a custom. In fact, it used to be a custom. We have been hunting seals in the Magdalen Islands for the past 200 or 300 years, but some time ago, seal fir and seal skins have become lucrative.

We hunted seals in the past and we are still hunting them, but the economic factor has completely changed. With this in mind, we assumed our responsibilities. In fact, the hunters are trained. They are not only informed but they are also trained to hunt properly.

On the other hand, for a Magdalen Islands fisherman who hunts seals, the seal hunt can account for up to 20 or 30 % of his annual income. That is what the hunt is currently worth. Seal skins are not the only valuable thing; some industries process seal fat. Moreover, there is research and development to find out what can be done with seal oil. Some ideas and projects are already afoot, but you will see that seal oil has very valuable properties.

We must also emphasize that in the tourist sector, people come to the Magdalen Islands before the seal hunt. From a helicopter, they can see what is going on and they can actually see the seal pups and enjoy the beautiful scenery.

On the one hand, we must realize that the seal hunt is not threatening the seal population with extinction, because the Greenland seal population has been growing substantially.

On the other hand, Greenland seals are not the only ones. There are other seals that are much bigger than Greenland seals. The seal population is constantly growing. I saw with my own eyes a site that I had never seen before. In fact, on the 600-kilometre Gaspé shoreline, we now see grey seals on the beaches, there were none before. This means that there is a population explosion. This is something else that we will have to look at. Nonetheless, it shows what the situation is.

This is why it is important not only to start discussing, but also to carry on discussing. We had an opportunity to do this yesterday. We are doing the same today, but it would be important to do the same again tomorrow, because in my opinion, as we are facing a demagogic disinformation campaign, you will have an idea of the value of the testimony brought before you.

Soon, you will be coming to Newfoundland and Labrador. I would like you to come to Magdalen Islands and I would certainly extend my personal invitation to you. However, I must stop now because I have gone over my time.

I thank the chairman very much for his indulgence.

Thank you very much. In any case, we will certainly have the opportunity to pursue this debate further. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Monsieur Blais. The pleasure is all ours.

As our guests can see, our membership is fairly passionate about this subject. Sometimes we feel a little boxed in and threatened by it, I think, but certainly I would like to convey our appreciation once again to all of you for coming here and having an open and frank discussion. Thank you also for hearing us at the Council of Europe at the Committee on the Environment this spring. Although we were a non-voting member, we were able to at least present a few points at that committee, and that was very much appreciated.

In terms of your list of questions, after speaking to our research people, we will give you a written answer to all of those. You should know that the TAC last year was 325,000 animals. Of the Quebec TAC or the Gulf of St. Lawrence TAC, 7,000 were the North Shore, and 18,000 were the Îles-de-la-Madeleine. The North Shore TAC was exceeded, but the overall TAC was not exceeded.

I'll ask for your understanding here, and I'm sure you can appreciate it in your own coastal communities, that the climate is changing. The ice has changed dramatically in the last decade or two here. It no longer comes at the same time of year; it's about two weeks ahead of time. It's no longer the same thickness or to the same extent as it used to be. Therefore, it is an issue of fluidity. The seals that are on the ice are in different places than they would have been a decade ago. Therefore, it does take some changing of circumstances in adapting to changing the TAC. However, the overall TAC, the total amount of animals allowed to be taken, was not exceeded.

I'll go to our next member. Mr. Manning.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd certainly like to take the opportunity to welcome you to Canada. Just as a point of note, for most of us or all of us around this table, our forefathers came from your side of the Atlantic Ocean. My own came from the counties of Waterford and Wexford in Ireland.

I represent a riding from Newfoundland and Labrador. As did our forefathers and our present fathers, in many cases, we've made a living from and sustained our livelihoods from the land and the sea. We've always done this, in whatever way, shape, or form. The killing of any animal, in any way, is not a pleasant sight, by any stretch of the imagination. I think we all realize that. It just happens that our abattoir is wide open to the world. You can be flown over in a helicopter and you can look at it. You can land on the ice and partake and see for yourself, when many animals are killed behind closed doors.

I guess from an animal rights perspective that is the catalyst that drives them, gives them the opportunity to paint us in Canada as barbarians, in many cases. To be honest with you, I have lived here for 42 years now, and I don't consider myself a barbarian in any way, shape, or form, and I don't consider my countrymen barbarians in any way, shape, or form.

The seal hunt is an important part of our economy. It's an important part of our livelihoods and has been for many, many years.

It's not easy to compete with the glamorous and rich. It's not easy to sit down, with an income of $25,000 a year, and 30%, 40%, or 50% of that income derived from the sealing industry, and be able to put your case forward, compared with the Paul McCartneys of the world. It's not easy.

That's the dilemma we find, as politicians and parliamentarians, in trying to take the message that these seal hunters have and relay it to you people here today and to the European Parliament. I guess that's the tough position that we've been put in, to try to sell this as what it really is.

It's one of the most humane hunts on the face of the earth. We have had independent veterinarian working groups participate and watch over the hunt as it's taking place. We have had sealers who have bought into the fact that we are in a very competitive world trying to sell this hunt, so therefore we have to ensure that we have a picture to the world that is not the picture of a barbarian.

What does the hunt mean to the fishermen in Newfoundland and Labrador and to the fishermen of Canada? It's a very important part of their income, it's a very important part of their family income, and it's a very important part of their communities. As Mr. Manning touched on earlier, sustaining economies and sustaining rural communities--I'm sure each and every one of you have that same objective as members of Parliament.

We've just finished hearings throughout Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, and Quebec, and we listened to sealers themselves who came before us, just like you are here today. They told us how important the seal hunt is to them, and so on. But they also told us of some tactics that the animal rights groups had used. To be honest with you, it brought my eyes wide open.

They give an example of a fisherman in St. Anthony, in the northern part of Newfoundland and Labrador. His name came about through the protestors, and they continuously called his home. They continuously threatened him and his family. They went as far as to say—and this is all public knowledge—“We'll skin your children alive.” But nobody hears that side. Nobody hears what the protestors are coming forward and doing to the people of our country, because that's not on the front pages of newspapers. But that is reality; that is what's happening.

You look at the TV screen and you see whitecoats being slaughtered. The fact is that 1987 was the last time a whitecoat was slaughtered in this country. That's what sells, and you can put it anyway you want to. You have a white seal on white ice and red blood; it's going to sell to the world. That is the situation we're trying to deal with here.

I welcome the opportunity to have you here in our country for the simple reason that we have an opportunity to get back to you with the facts and the figures, and what we believe is the reality of this hunt. It's a hunt that has grown to become, as I said, the most humane hunt in the world. That hasn't come easily, and many things had to be changed within the hunt.

If the seal population is so detrimental, we have to ask ourselves why the population has tripled since the 1970s. The population has tripled since the 1970s. These estimates are peer reviewed. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans estimates are peer reviewed. So it's not something that's isolated to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. The hunt is sustainable. I even questioned one of the sealers during our meetings: the population has tripled since the 1970s, we have a TAC that's 325,000, would you like to see the TAC increased? The hunter answered no. He said, no, we have a good hunt here now; we have a good product from America and we're doing very well on it. He said that's where they want to stay. It's not a grab-all situation we have here.

The bottom line is that we are involved in a hunt, and we can look at all the different hunts that go on in the world.

I'll finish up with this at the present time. I'm being a little bit repetitive.

No hunt is nice to look at. No killing of any animal is a pretty sight. The fact is that we have the most humane hunt in the world that's very regulated. Contrary to what others may try to convince you of, it's very regulated.

To throw a question back, I'll finish with this. How do we as Canadians, as parliamentarians, go across the ocean to the European Parliament and to the countries of Europe and get our real message across to the people--the real message, not the one that's bought and paid for by the animal rights groups, the real message of what the seal hunt is? It's important to the people of Canada. It's important to the people in Newfoundland and Labrador.

As some would say in court, that is the truth, so help me God.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Mr. Manning.

We've had an opportunity for a group of our members to speak. Perhaps we would offer the same opportunity now to some of our colleagues from the European Parliament.

Are there other comments or further questions?

[Seán Ó Neachtain]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for those comments. Now I will allow some members who have asked for the floor. First, Mr. Freitas wasn't here when we started, so I'll give him the floor.

Mr. Freitas.