Fisheries Committee on Nov. 28th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Very quickly.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

If he would follow up with me personally as we get into February, before the season, I'd be glad to talk to him about it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, I first of all want to thank publicly Faith Scattolon down on the east coast. I recently had a tour of BIO, my fourth tour in nine years, and it was extremely well done. The staff down there did a great job. One thing they impressed upon me was the fact that science, even though there was a slight increase this year, shows that it may not have the accelerated increases that we're all looking for. So if you are going to cabinet asking for more money for science, I know on behalf on the people at BIO, they would greatly appreciate it in that regard.

I have a couple of questions for you, sir. If you don't have the answers now, perhaps it would be possible to get them later. It would be interesting to know the number of habitat enforcement officers for the central Arctic region. Have they decreased over the last few years, or are they staying the same?

Also, on lighthouses, I know there's a divestiture of lighthouses ongoing. The lighthouse associations in Nova Scotia and British Columbia, for example, are looking to ensure, if at all possible, that their organizations would have first crack at maintaining a part of our history.

You talked about the preservation and conservation of wild salmon. I've spoken to mining companies, and in most cases around the country, when mining companies are in an area, they will build a separate tailings pond. It's basically a hole. They'll line it, they'll put water in it, and then they'll put the tailings in there.

As you know from a question I asked you earlier regarding a duck pond and lake near the Exploits River, which both flow into the river, there's quite a concern by environmental groups and fishing groups that the allowance of these lakes be turned into tailings ponds through schedule 2. Plus, there are lakes right across the country that are next in line, and there's a concern that we're allowing the mining companies a cheaper way of out it, instead of developing their own tailings ponds, by using a natural water system for their tailings ponds.

Do you not think this may contradict what you said about conservation? If we are using the precautionary principle, shouldn't the mining companies do what they do in most cases and set up their own, instead of using a lake for their tailings systems?

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Chair, I certainly don't think I contradicted what I said at all. In fact, if we want to go back to some comments I made, we talked about our concern for habitat and protecting habitat and marine conservation areas, etc., but realizing that there is a resource in the ocean from which an awful lot of people benefit and make a living from, as well as the country that benefits from the economy. If we cannot as a country develop our resources, whether it be the private or public sector, and are not allowed to develop these resources to create employment to stimulate the economy, if we don't use our natural resources, where does a country like this get the money to move forward and provide the tremendous social programs that we have?

Can we have the best of both worlds? I think we can. Are we there in all cases? Probably not. That's why I think we're becoming much more habitat conscious. As we move forward, stronger and more stringent requirements will be placed on mines.

In the case of AUR Resources, that company went through an environmental assessment. A compensation plan was put in place to actually enhance the Exploits River, to provide a better enhancement in that very area to make sure any damage of loss of fish or fish habitat was offset. Sometimes you have to make those trade-offs to make sure you can have the best of both.

Mr. Chairman, whenever we make decisions, we have three acts governing us, the Fisheries Act, the Environmental Assessment Act, and the Species at Risk Act. We have legal obligations to make sure we do a good job and that we're not taking a quick cursory look at it, because it's a mining company or some big industry, to tell them to go ahead. No. We need to create jobs, but we also need to protect habitat. We try to do the best to balance both within the legislation under which we operate.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Minister.

Very quickly, can you please explain resource management this year showing $105.9 million and in two years going down to $64.7 million. Can you explain the decrease and what that actually means? Also, MTS Services, marine communication, showing $107.1 million for this year and $79.8 million in two years. If not now, can you possibly write to the committee and to our researcher explaining what those entail in terms of numbers of people and why the decreases in those two areas?

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Let me see if we can get three answers in for you, the first one being on habitat officers. We didn't finish on the west coast originally, and you raised central at that time. In relation to lighthouses, I'm a great lighthouse supporter, so anything done there will be done with care and caution and consideration and consultation.

On the habitat officers generally, and on the two budgetary requirements, we'll go to Sue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Be very brief, please.

[Sue Kirby, Assistant Deputy Minister, Oceans and Habitat, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

On the two questions you asked relating to habitat, in terms of officers on the west coast, we have managed to increase the budget for the habitat program this year on the west coast as a result of the $99 million in transformational funds, in total, that the minister was able to achieve for the department. And the portion of that for habitat on the west coast stays at $1.3 million.

You asked about habitat enforcement officers in central and in the Arctic, and yes, there has been a reduction. There has been a smaller reduction than was originally planned. I thought I had the number with me in terms of our actual implementation as of today, and I don't. But we'll write to you on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Manning.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the minister and officials from his department.

Just as a point of clarification, maybe to Mr. Murray, on the small craft harbours and the $20 million that's due to sunset on March 31, is it correct to say that the department is requesting that $20 million per year be reinstated, plus an additional $35 million per year on top of the $20 million, for a total of $55 million?

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

That is the requirement.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

That's the request, is it? Okay.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Well, that's the requirement. The request will be built along those lines. That's what we need.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

Okay, so that's the requirement the department put forward.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

It's above and beyond the $20 million we're talking about.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

Minister, I have two questions, and I'll ask both of them now, in the interest of time, and you can answer them.

There are concerns in Newfoundland and Labrador, and I'm sure in Canada, in regard to overfishing. I know the government has taken some stands on that and some action on that, but I'd like to get an update on exactly where we're to with that at the present time.

With regard to the recreational food fishery this year, which was a major success in many parts of our province, could you elaborate on this summer's activities and on any proposals or plans? In a nutshell, can the people of Newfoundland and Labrador expect to be back on the water in 2007?

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, to Mr. Manning.

On the overfishing issue, again, when we talked about infrastructure, I guess, or the coast guard, habitat, and the Fraser River, all of these issues were dealt with, and a lot of push was put on by the former committee, and none more so than for overfishing. It was an issue introduced, I'm sure, over the years, but was certainly reinvigorated the very first day we sat on this committee. It went through debates, it went through motions in the House, it went through all kinds of discussion.

We said we would deal with overfishing. People say, you know, you say one thing on one side of the House, and you get on the other side and you say something different. I've made it clear. Anything I've said when I was a member of this committee--and you can dig out any Hansard that covered the committee, I haven't changed my mind one little bit. I'm saying the same thing today.

Have we done something about overfishing? Yes, we have. We have added to the resource, to the surveillance and so on, of the Nose and Tail and the Flemish Cap from an aerial surveillance point of view to an oceans point of view, something that had been started by the previous government. In fact, a fair amount of work had been done by the previous government in that area. What we did was something that we had always said could be done.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

What was that last comment? I missed that.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

It's in Hansard. I don't mind giving credit where credit is due, but again, thanks to the pressure of the committee—

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Go ahead with your answer, Mr. Hearn.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

In order to stop overfishing in international waters, we said that we need cooperation. We always said there were other countries that believed the same as we did, if somebody had the leadership and coordination to do it.

On the efforts by our people, when I say “our people”, I mean it's the people from our province who were at NAFO, our officials who were at NAFO, and our own political people who were at NAFO this year. We spent weeks, from the first day I became minister until the NAFO meeting, planning how we would turn around NAFO. We did, and I won't get into the spirit of NAFO. People think they were insignificant changes, but look at what's there and look at what happens on the first of January.

We carried it further, Mr. Chair.

We took all kinds of flack from environmental groups, during the last couple of months, about Canada's stand on bottom trawling. It's the same stand the former government had, because we realized that dealing with one little aspect of technology doesn't do anything, particularly when what people want you to do is completely unenforceable.

We were looking at a major sustainable fisheries resolution that solidified the gains we had made at NAFO. By taking the middle-of-the-road position, with the help of some others, including Australia, we brought those polarized around one little paragraph in an 80-paragraph resolution to the centre point. We now have a major sustainable fisheries resolution going to the UN that is supported by the 100-plus countries and commits to deal with the very things for which we have been asking for years.

Have we made a major headway in dealing with overfishing, misreporting, and all the other activities, and in dealing with those who step outside the line? Yes, Mr. Chair, we certainly have.

How do we know? Well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I think we'll very shortly see some of that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Manning. You're going to have to wait for another round.

Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Mr. Minister and officials.

I enjoyed your opening statement, and I'd like you to elaborate a little farther on it.

The fact is that you visited the federal riding of Cardigan. I hope you understand the strain on the fishermen who fish the Northumberland Strait in my district. You said there were some short-term solutions put in place in order to deal with the major problem of what I believe is too much strain on the fishery, too many traps in the water, and too many licences in the area. Does the minister have any thoughts on removing some of the licences?

I'm talking about a buyout program in order to make sure the fishermen in the Northumberland Strait who remain in the fishery have a chance to survive.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

It's a pretty good question, Mr. Chair.

In fact, I've visited P.E.I. several times since I've been minister. I would say I've met with representatives of all sectors of the fishery. I toured a lot of the fishing enterprises, looked at a lot of the small craft harbours in the area, and visited plants.

One thing that's evident in P.E.I., which is the same in Newfoundland and certainly in Quebec, is that we have areas in the province where people who are dependent on the fishery are having a rough time. We also have areas in P.E.I., like the north side, as you know, where they've done very well and are doing very well.

When there is a problem in the industry, we always go back to the old saying by Parzival Copes years ago of too many fishermen chasing too few fish. That again might be true.

We have three options, Mr. Chair. One, we can take more people out to suit a dwindling resource. The second thing we can do is deal with the dwindling resource to see why it is dwindling and try to improve the resource to suit the numbers of people who are trying to make a living. The third is to let others get involved in doing just that, and it's what we've been doing.

It's why we had a major meeting in P.E.I. to deal with the Northumberland Strait, where most of the problems are occurring, for all kinds of reasons. We brought in the other provinces that are directly involved to collectively put our heads together, as we're doing in Newfoundland and as we are now doing in Quebec, getting the people who are directly involved to come up with some of the solutions.

Is government going to solve all the problems with government programs or buyouts? We tried that before. It didn't work, and industry and the people involved will tell you that. A lot of the solutions have to come from the people involved. It will be a consolidation and a cooperation that is coordinated with government leadership and help. There's no doubt about it; we are going to have to be involved.