Fisheries Committee on Nov. 28th, 2006

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Did I hear that you would not be in favour of a buyout program, more or less?

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

No—

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I mean, it's okay to study the program, but the people who can't make their payments can't put up with studies too long. The fact is that they have bills to pay that they cannot pay and they need help.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Let me say quite clearly that I'm not talking about studying. I have the same philosophy of studies as you do yourself, but I'm in a position to do something about it now.

I don't believe in lengthy royal commissions. Look, it has been studied to death. We—and I say “we” collectively—know what some of the solutions are, but most of them are in Cardigan, not here in Ottawa. That's why we brought the people around the table, not to have a study done but to get together themselves, which they have done in this process, to recommend collectively what part you play, what part the other person plays, and what part we play, to deal with these very programs.

Is a buyout part of it? We'll see when the results come in. Most of them figure some people will have to be taken out of the industry. As to what process will be used, that will be a collective call. Sometimes industry would like to self-rationalize. They'd be a lot better off doing that than having government do it for them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

You have 30 seconds, Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

So there are really no short-term solutions. That's a problem for the fishermen.

I have to address small craft harbours for a moment, because I mightn't get a chance from my colleagues here to say another word.

Mr. Minister, you realize that in 2005 they felt, and you felt too, that they needed $470 million to put the wharves that we are responsible for back in shape. Those are 2005 figures. It's my understanding that when you approach government, it's not going to be those kinds of figures that you're going to be looking for. I think it's vitally important. Looking at the financial situation of the day and looking at the financial situation when the $100 million was put in over five years, those are two different days. So I urge you, please, on behalf of the fishermen, to make sure you ask for an adequate amount of money, when the money is there, in order to make sure the wharves are put back in proper shape.

Also, Mr. Minister, on the regulations—and I know it has been addressed here—I very much hope that you and Transport Canada will come before this committee and not have these new regulations put to us and the fishermen. I know we have to deal with safety issues, but we also have to have input from fishermen.

Sometimes—for example, throwing the big males back—it's a problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I appreciate that, Mr. MacAulay, but we have to deal with time issues here, and you are way over time.

Perhaps we could give the minister a very quick opportunity to respond.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I'll be very brief, Mr. Chairman.

In relation to transport regulations, it certainly is Transport Canada, and I would suggest you invite them here, because a lot of people are afraid there's more involvement for them than there actually might be, keeping in mind safety first.

In relation to two comments about no short-term solution, I certainly didn't say that. In fact, in relation to the P.E.I. summit, they are reporting early in the new year, and the Quebec summit reports February 1, for the very reason of having something put in place for the coming season. That is being done.

The $400 million is certainly a problem, but in relation to the mess that we're trying to deal with and all these problems in the fishery and the amount of money that we're behind in small craft harbours, I would remind you that I didn't create that; I inherited it. So others have to take some of the blame for the position we're in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

But, Minister, you have the solution for small craft harbours. You may not have created the problem, somebody else did. However the point is not to find a guilty party. In any case, I think that there would be more than one.

At this point in time we're considering solutions, more specifically short-term solutions. In terms of the year 2007 in Quebec—and I imagine this question could also apply elsewhere—do you support the idea of assisting fishermen in order to decrease the costs of operating their vessels?

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

One of the things that have been looked at in relation to this summit we have set up, Mr. Chair, is that it sounds like an easy way to slough off responsibilities. Actually, it's not. It's a way to bring an awful lot of extra work on yourselves, because people have now been brought to the table. Everybody in the industry has been brought to the table. They are all playing a part, including the committees that are following it. In fact, we left Quebec the other day with three committees being set up: one in harvesting, one in processing, and one in blanket marketing and commercialization generally. They have a short timeframe to come back to us with recommendations on how to deal with the crisis that we face. Undoubtedly they're going to be looking for a quick fix in a lot of cases, because they need it in order to get going for this coming spring, and then for more longer-term solutions.

Mr. Chair, the process we have set up is really a collective one in which the advice is coming right from an area. For those of you who are involved, who are representing ridings, and who can probably tell me what will work in your own riding, I just want to state that this is basically what we tried to narrow it down to. Instead of a blanket situation from Ottawa or from the province, each area has specific requirements. P.E.I. had a great lobster fishery in part of the island, but it was an abysmal failure in other parts. So different solutions are necessary here if we're going to put the fishery on a solid foundation.

I look forward to what comes out of these meetings so that we can zero in on trying to provide some of the solutions that are so necessary.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Hearn, I will repeat my question and I would like to have an answer: are you in favour of reducing operational costs for fishermen for the year 2007?

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

That's what I meant to say when I started off, Mr. Chair.

In fact, it was discussed briefly. We have discussed it. We've been discussing it since last year. You and I have discussed it. As we move through there, what is the role of the federal department or the federal government? What can we do to make life a bit easier? That will certainly be one of the things that come up. What will we do about it? When we see it as it all comes out, we'll figure out what we can do about it then.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Are you considering reducing the cost of permits for fishermen in the year 2007? I'm thinking specifically about shrimpers.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Again, we threw that out. In fact, we've even thrown a few things on the table that they should consider, including looking at setting fees, for instance, if these things are possible. Fees are generally set across the board. Unfortunately, some of the fees were set when the prices were very high, and when the prices dropped—the price of shrimp and the price of crab in particular—the fee structure didn't drop with them.

But there's a lot more to it than that in relation to who has it, how much, what the costs are, etc. Will we look at those things? Absolutely, because I think doing so is an integral part of solving the overall problem.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

A decision was recently made, just after the forum, with respect to lobster fishing by Îles-de-la-Madeleine fishermen in the sector north of Prince Edward Island. Is it your intention to overturn that decision?

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Are you talking about McLeod's Ledge?

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Yes.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

The McLeod's Ledge one was a decision just recently made. That's a fight that has been going on for quite some time. No agreement could be reached.

We try to solve many of our problems by bringing together the people who are involved and letting them work it out. It's always better than imposing a solution. In this case, it couldn't be done. We brought in somebody agreed to by all parties to do an independent study. The person came in with a solid report. We have accepted the report. That's exactly where it stands at this time, and we have no intention of changing that.

Are there other things we can do that are built around it? Absolutely. In fact, some things are already in motion. But that decision itself was made based upon an independent recommendation by a person accepted by both sides to settle a problem that they themselves wouldn't settle.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Minister Hearn.

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Chairman, I just want to say that when it comes to trade-offs of having mining companies use natural lakes for tailing ponds instead of developing their own tailing ponds, it's similar to allowing a forestry company to log a national park and say, well, we'll plant trees in our backyard. I always have concerns about these trade-offs.

Minister, you just invited me, I think, to say that anything you said way back then can be used against you in the court of public opinion. I just happen to have the February 5, 2002, committee hearings. Here's what you said about trust agreements. It goes on, but you said:

Yet even though that's true, there are many people out there making fortunes and there's all kinds of manipulation within the system. ... Usually it's bought by some fish plant owner, some processor who accumulates all kinds of licences, and as Earle

--that's Mr. Earle McCurdy of the fisheries union--

has so clearly said, they get a fisherman to sign his name on a piece of paper and they own him for life.

You went on to say:

It's simply a matter of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans forgetting about the quick buck themselves, forgetting about looking after the corporate friends who sit around and drink cognac with them, and thinking about the people they're supposed to represent—the ordinary, average fisherman who should have a clear-cut licence if he qualifies, and whose licence should revert the minute he fails to be a fisherman, an owner-operator. We have too many sitting—and, again, it's in the report—at home, owning several licences. They're “slipper skippers” who sit with their feet up, monitor their two-way radios, and talk to the fellows out there making the fortune for them while getting very little out of it themselves. If this continues, the fishery is going to be a real joke in a few years' time.

Sir, on trust agreements, two of them were bought up yesterday in the Digby area by a company. I've asked this question before and I ask it again. Do you hold this view that you did in 2002, and what are you and your department doing about the corporatization of the lobster industry in terms of trust agreements?

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I said what I said before, that I stand by anything I said in the past. The only part of this that I would change slightly is the part about departmental people. I presume I was talking about politicians, because my officials work much too hard to have been drinking cognac. As I never had a drink in my life myself, I'm certainly not sitting around drinking cognac.

I still hold that view, Mr. Stoffer. That whole situation is in a mess. Again, it was one of the very first things we started to address when we came to the department. In fact, a tremendous amount of work had been done. Except perhaps for some of the other crisis situations that have developed over the last couple of months, this also would now be on the table, but we have moved a long way on that and very soon we'll be coming forth with suggestions to deal with it.

My word of warning, I guess, which I have gotten out to people who are out there buying up licences thinking the government will grandfather what happened, is that I'd be careful where I invested my money.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Finally, I want to thank you and the department very much for the work going on regarding the mapping coordination with DND and others in the far north. I got a very good briefing about that at BIO. It's obvious this needs long-term commitment and funding, but I think the mapping of the continental shelves, especially in the far north with global warming, will go a long way in looking after not only our territory but proper resources, fisheries, and under the ground in the future. I thank you and your department for that.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you for that, Mr. Stoffer.

There are a couple of other areas of mapping also. In relation to the follow-up, besides what I mentioned we're doing to control overfishing on the Nose and Tail, we presently have a major contract under way to do the mapping in that area, comprehensive mapping of the continental shelf, and we are also working for our case of ownership or control of the continental shelf under the Law of the Sea. That is also well under way. So there are a number of initiatives being put together to deal with this major problem we have of protecting our territory and our resource.

Thank you for the comments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Very quickly, Mr. Stoffer.