Fisheries Committee on Jan. 30th, 2007

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you very much.

Good day, gentleman. I have a number of questions and comments for you. I represent the Gaspé region and the Magdalen Islands. I'm originally from Port-Daniel, a community located close to Chaleur Bay. If memory serves me well, in August 2003, I signed a petition calling on the federal government to conduct an independent environmental assessment in connection with the planned facilities at Belledune, New Brunswick. Unfortunately, I did not receive any kind of response from you, either in my capacity as a politician or as a member of the general public.

I'm quite prepared to place my trust in you, but I cannot do so fully, and that's totally natural. To begin with, you are businessmen. You develop contaminated sites and you plan to develop additional sites down the road, which could have an impact on the environment. Given that this is the Fisheries Committee, I'm especially concerned about marine resources in Chaleur Bay.

You haven't reassured me enough. You sponsored the study submitted for analysis. I'd like to see an independent study done. I'm speaking for concerning members of the public in the Quebec and New Brunswick communities along Chaleur Bay. If everything that you have said thus far was the gospel truth, then no one would be concerned. Unfortunately, people are concerned.

In the past, other companies have claimed to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. We could give you examples of proposed solutions that ultimately created public health and environmental problems. In this case, we have marine resources to consider as well.

For that reason, I have to ask why you are opposed to an independent environmental assessment, one worthy of its name?

[Michael McSweeney]

I've only been with the company for two years, and I can tell members that everybody who was there in the past is gone, except for Flavio Campagnaro; he's been there for eight or nine years. We have a completely new management team. So I can't answer for the people in the past, but I would have to say that it was the federal government recommendation that this should not have a full environmental impact assessment.

It really is up to the Government of Canada to request an environmental assessment, and the Government of Canada said no to an environmental impact assessment. The minister at the time, Mr. Anderson, chose to disregard his own colleagues and ordered an environmental impact assessment. The court overturned the minister and said, no, there would not be an environmental impact. Then the new minister, Mr. Dion, challenged, and appealed the decision of the court, and the Federal Court of Canada said no environmental assessment.

So gentlemen, it's not up to me, it is up to the government to say that you will have an environmental assessment. If the government doesn't say it, then it won't happen. And it was not required.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. McSweeney, I'd like to speak the truth and nothing but the truth.

The request to set up an environmental commission came late, in my estimation. That's how the judge ruled. This initiative is no longer in the project stage, it has become a reality. The request needed to be submitted earlier.

As far as substance is concerned, we didn't find an answer. However, a request was submitted by the then minister. It arrived several days before the elections. That's also a fact. Mindful that this was a very important issue in the Gaspé region, the announcement came only several days before the elections. It could have come six months, or even a year earlier, but it didn't. The truth needs to be stated. You weren't there, but I was, and I can attest to these facts.

Given the potential impact on the environment in general and on marine resources, I wonder if you would be open to an independent environmental assessment.

[Michael McSweeney]

Just to set the record straight as well, I want to point out that construction of the building really didn't start until very late in the winter of 2003. So there was ample time for the federal Minister of the Environment to call for an environmental impact assessment.

Perhaps the federal Minister of the Environment at the time dragged his feet. I don't know why he did not call. By the time he called for it, the building was substantially complete--not our fault. If the minister dragged his feet and did not call for an environmental impact assessment, that is not the fault of a Canadian taxpayer.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I'm not asking you to answer for the minister. I'm asking you to respond to this simple question as a representative of Bennett Environmental Inc. Are you in favour of an independent environmental assessment? Yes or no?

[Michael McSweeney]

At this point in time I would say no, because with all of the information we've gathered, all of the studies we've done, and the millions of dollars we've spent, this project has been overstudied. We have met every regulation.

At this point in time I would say it is highly inappropriate to have an environmental impact assessment on a $33-million building that is up and ready to start to work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Monsieur Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I'll come back to this question later. I'm not about to give up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

You'll be back.

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Chairman, thank you.

Thank you to our witnesses for appearing today.

I've heard other companies in the past say that they meet provincial and federal regulations, but in a lot of people's eyes that's not necessarily something to hang your hat on, because many of us don't think that provincial and federal regulations are strong enough or stringent enough. I know that my colleague Yvon Godin had raised concerns about this, as one of the representatives out there. I know a fair number of people were opposed, on both sides of the Baie-des-Chaleurs, on this issue.

I've always indicated that if everything you've said--you're a very good representative of your company, and I give you credit for that--is absolutely bang-on...and I'm not a scientist or a regulator in any way. I can't really say you're wrong or you're right. But to allay the fears of the people in the surrounding area--ignore what the federal government says about whether it requires a federal assessment or it doesn't--why wouldn't the company or you say today to the people, “Look, we know that technically we don't have to have a federal independent assessment, but to allay the fears of people in the surrounding communities, we will go ahead and do one?” Why wouldn't you do that to put to rest the fears?

Most people don't trust government. Most people don't trust big business. But they will trust information if it comes from an independent, non-biased third party. As my colleague Mr. Blais said, why wouldn't your company ask to do just that?

[Michael McSweeney]

You know, Mr. Stoffer, I would like to say we've done it. We've done it according to the New Brunswick Department of Environment, and we have followed their environmental impact assessment criteria. We have studied. We've paid close to $2 million for studies by an independent third party, by Jacques Whitford, and by other consultants. It's been done.

You're right, people think that the standards government puts in place are not strict enough. That's why I wanted to make the point to you today that with respect to the standards that the federal government has, we are 80 times better than the minimum standards that the federal government--that you, representing the people of Canada--has set.

You are the regulator. If you don't like the standards, set new standards. We will meet them. We're meeting them voluntarily, 80 times better than what you say today. I can't do any more than 80 times better.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

You've just indicated that you've met the provincial assessment standards?

[Michael McSweeney]

Canada-wide, the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment, and the Canada-wide emissions standards; we are 80 times better than the Canada-wide emissions standards.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Okay.

The other thing is that we just recently in Cape Breton announced a project for the tar ponds. Is the technology that you have in your Belledune plant capable of dealing with the tar ponds issue, or is that a different thing altogether?

[Michael McSweeney]

I was very fortunate this morning to fly up from Toronto with Elizabeth May, for whom I have a great deal of respect and with whom I worked very closely in the eighties. I'm just devastated for the people of Cape Breton. I would like to quote Elizabeth May that...when she says the latest proposal to sprinkle fairy dust or cement on top of the tar ponds means they're going to rely on unproven technology that poses a risk to the public's health: “Even if it works, we're building a concrete sarcophagus in the middle of Sydney that will forever hold the risk of leeching toxic waste. It's not a cleanup, it's a cover-up.”

I agree with Elizabeth May. I can tell you that there are so many hot spots of PCBs in the Sydney tar ponds that....

You cannot put PCBs in a landfill if they have more than 50 parts per million. There are spots that have 1,000 ppm of PCBs in the tar ponds, yet Environment Canada came in and dodged, and weaved, and could never really answer the question, but told the full panel review that they thought they could sprinkle cement over the tar ponds and create a sarcophagus.

I think what's happening down there is very short-sighted. To think that we've spent probably almost a billion dollars in 25 years....

I started working for a Nova Scotian MP in 1980, and this was on the agenda in 1980.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Did your company deal with it, though?

[Michael McSweeney]

Absolutely. We were down there. I made a presentation. I've worked very closely for the last four years with the Sydney Tar Ponds Agency. I met with the deputy premier and minister of public works in Nova Scotia.

I mean, this is a problem. Why are we turning the middle of Sydney, Nova Scotia, into a permanent concrete dump when we could open that up and make it a natural harbour again? Somebody said to me yesterday, there's lots of water down there. Where there's no vision, the people perish. We should be thinking of a thousand years from now and not thinking so short-sightedly and building a dump. You couldn't do it in Sarnia; you can't do it at Horizon's landfill in the Trois-Rivières region. Why are we going to allow it to happen in Nova Scotia?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Mr. Stoffer, that took the remainder of your time.

I think the discussion today is about Belledune. If we'd like to discuss the Sydney tar ponds at another date, I'm sure the committee could agree to do that.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Is there going to be time, though?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

You know what? We have lots of time to ask questions.

Mr. Stoffer, very quickly.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I just want to be clear on the technology they have for treating the soils. Can it also relate to something as watery as, for example, the tar ponds? I just want to have that information, that's all.

[Michael McSweeney]

I'll send you an e-mail.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I'm not going to comment on that, because it's really a comment for another day.

Our next questioner is Mr. Kamp.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for appearing. I too wouldn't mind a comment or two on the tar ponds, but I will resist the temptation.

You said you had plants in addition to the one in Quebec and to the proposed one that's built but not operating in New Brunswick, and in Ontario as well. Is it the same technology in Ontario?