Fisheries Committee on May 30th, 2006

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

It's been discussed at this committee on a number of occasions. Whenever the discussion around seals arises, we speak about a great opportunity. It's recognized as being a great source of protein, of the omega-3s.... There are so many aspects of the harvest that are good.

You've made reference to trying to encourage fishers to go out and engage with the harvest. Could you give us an idea where the fishers are and where the packers are? That's a whole industry in itself.

As well, are we getting support from DFO with regard to the overall harvest and marketing and the research and development around marine animal products in general? Could you give us sort of view on that?

[Denny Morrow]

We've had a couple of training programs for sealers. I think we're in the neighbourhood of 20 to 30. Most of them are from your area, the North of Smokey group, but we do have some young fishermen from the South Shore area, Mr. Keddy's riding, who participated in the harvest this year. They have to do some apprenticeship.

We intend to expand, as we train people carefully, because we realize that it's a sensitive issue. If you siimply have people going out and killing seals in a not humane way, it could backfire on the industry.

I think we are in a take-off position here, because $50...the sealers-fishermen told me that this winter they made good money doing that. So they're encouraged.

We do have one processing company that handled the meat, the samples, that's interested in expanding that business. Right now we have a request out for proposals to sealers and to processors--I expect a response back by mid-June--regarding the shipment to China.

If there are additional processors who want to get involved, they have to develop a protocol with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency for handling and processing the meat. They also have to develop a partnership with the sealers.

I'd say we're in a take-off position with this. The people involved did make money last winter.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I guess this would be more directed to the Province of Nova Scotia, with processing being a provincial jurisdiction. Have they rolled up their sleeves at all with the issue?

[Denny Morrow]

Nobody has rolled up their sleeves. DFO hasn't. The province hasn't. It's been left to the industry.

We have some resources. Fishermen's organizations contribute processors, and we have a lot of volunteer work. It's been very difficult.

Nobody wants to deal with this issue. And without DFO recognizing that there is an impact on our fish stocks and on our commercial fishery by these 12-month-a-year grey seals, we'll never get there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cuzner and Mr. Morrow.

The next questioner is Monsieur Roy.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In your presentation, you stated that grey seals live around Sable Island 365 days per year. Do they have any predator at all, apart from humans?

[Denny Morrow]

First, to clarify, this is the grey seal pupping area. The population of grey seals arrives there in the winter time. They do their pupping, their breeding, and then they disperse. There are also new pupping areas around the Bay of Fundy and around Cape Breton, and into the gulf as well.

In terms of predators, some species of sharks are predators. Outside of that, I think the main predator over the last 300 years or 400 years has been human beings. I read Mi'kmaq history, stories from before the arrival of Europeans, that seals were a favoured species to harvest among the Mi'kmaq for the fat, the oil, and the meat.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I will ask another question and then I will yield to Mr. Blais.

If such a big herd -- and it would be the same for common seals -- did not have enough predators, it would reach a point when it would start declining because of a lack of food that would lead to a decrease in the size of the herd and the size of the animals.

Have any studies being carried out by Fisheries and Oceans showing that we might be close to the point of no return as far as the capacity of the ocean to feed the herd is concerned? If there an exponential increase of the herd, there would be a lack of food on Sable Island and the seals would begin to leave the area.

[Denny Morrow]

The grey seal is a very intelligent animal. It's an opportunistic feeder that feeds on what is most available. It can certainly displace commercial fishermen, taking the food that we take out of the ocean, especially groundfish. We feel that this is taking place. We're seeing it in western Nova Scotia now.

You're right that at some point the animal starts to decline in health, weight, and also fertility. That hasn't happened yet. I understand from the scientists that the grey seal is doing very well.

The DFO scientists are experimenting with a lipid analysis, in which they take a piece of blubber from some of the seals around Sable Island and analyze it to see what DNA traces there are in the food. They're finding that the seals around Sable Island are concentrating on redfish and sand lance now. It's no surprise to me, because the cod is pretty well gone off Sable Island Bank, Western Bank, and so on. Anybody familiar with fishing in those areas can tell you that you can't find them any more. So it's not surprising that you don't see much cod in the lipid analysis.

I understand that in Iceland, where they have lots of cod, they find about 25% in their seals.

Also, fishermen in Cape Breton and other areas report that they find grey seals following their lobster fishing boats, the same way that seagulls do. Only lobsters too small to meet the measure are being thrown back.

There's no doubt in our mind that the grey seal is opportunistic, and there's still lots more to eat. But will there be any commercial fishing business left after they're done?

Eventually they will hit the wall, and a disease will set in. Then maybe they will collapse.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Monsieur Blais, you have three minutes.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

One of the reasons you have appeared before the committee was to make the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans aware of a serious problem. Did you have another objective, such as trying to get answers to the questions you have, and that we also have relating to another species, the common seal? We don't know the precise impact of grey seals and of commmon seals on cod stocks. If those were your two objectives, did you have any others?

[Denny Morrow]

Thank you for that question.

My objective today, and something I'd like to leave the committee with, is I'm hoping DFO will continue to give the allocation to the Grey Seal Research and Development Society. I would like to see a scientific forum with industry on ecosystem and commercial fisheries impacts. I don't think they are well understood. We need to bring in scientists from Norway, Iceland, and other places where they're dealing with this issue. We need to ask the right impact questions. In my view, they're not being asked, especially the seal worm issue. I think that's a huge one. The scientists in Iceland pointed me in that direction regarding the waste material, the ketones, excreted by the worms. If the committee members could just see some of the fish we take off the Scotian Shelf now and how lousy it is with worms.... In that moratorium area, where we do some scientific research on the fish off the eastern shore of Nova Scotia, processors will open fish and find it's only fit for the trash can. That cannot be healthy fish. No questions are being asked about that.

We need to establish a target population level for that herd based upon its ecosystem impact. We need to review the restricted areas, and they are numerous. We need to look at harvest methods. For example, one of the difficulties we have concerns the great difference between harvesting harp seals. Newfoundland sealers can go out on the ice, there are no restricted areas for them, whereas we have to harvest grey seals on islands and on coastlines. For meat, if we shoot an adult--and that's the way we kill them--if there are 12 of them there, we get one, the rest hit the water, and they're gone. Now that's not an economical way to harvest. We'd like to be able to use a net to catch some of them, so we can harvest an economical group. We've asked DFO for permission, and it hasn't been granted. Right now, we can't fill the order to China, and we want to target adults, because the harvest method is very difficult.

I'll just point out that elephants in South African parks are managed. They're culled when the numbers get too high because of the destruction of the vegetation. Wild animals in Australia are managed the same way. When I was down in Washington, D.C., in December, for a conference, in The Washington Post and The New York Times I was reading about a cull: We need more deer hunters around suburban areas in Maryland, Virginia, and New Jersey, because the deer herds see the suburban yards and gardens as one big salad bowl, and destroy the landscape, the flowers. For some reason, seals have become sacred and we'll allow this devastation to happen to an industry and to our coastline, and do nothing about it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Very quickly, Mr. Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

At the end of your answer, you referred to the international context.

In Europe, the sealing issue is again coming back to the forefront, which is not to our benefit. What are the reactions internationally? What should be the department's strategy -- which might also be ours -- to improve our image in the world? What steps should we take?

[Denny Morrow]

The biggest problem we have in seafood processing and exports in Nova Scotia is not enough raw material. We could export more fish, more shellfish; we just don't have it. We're not going to have fish either.

As far as the U.S. humane society's boycott, our members are not seeing a great effect from it. In fact, it's just the opposite. We could sell a lot more fish if we had it and it was good quality. I guess that's the first comment. I think we respond and think too much about these media campaigns with the celebrities that take place every spring.

I've asked people in the Norwegian industry, because they export a lot of salmon and a lot of other seafood products to Europe; they manage their seal herd, and they harvest them. They've said they've been targeted in Europe before, and the result was not even a blip in their sales. I think we, as Canadians, are a little too worried about the media and our public image. I think we have to look after our self-interest in that regard.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I don't agree with you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you.

Mr. Stoffer, you have five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Morrow, thank you very much for your presentation today, sir.

Your analysis of elephants in parks and deer in cities may not go over well as a conclusive argument because as man has encroached upon their territories these animals have not had many places to go, whereas the ocean is a big area, and they have lots of places to go. So I do not know if that would be a compelling argument to government.

But you do make one point about Norway. As this committee knows, the people of Norway are fully supportive of their fishing industry and understand why seals need to be managed. In Canada there is still a huge amount of popular opinion against the commercial seal hunt, and this is among Canadians themselves.

Government has failed, I think, over the years to properly explain to Canadians why a commercial seal hunt is important for the economy and for the management of our east coast stocks. I would like to know if you would verify that statement.

Also--and I would like to thank our researchers for this--in 2001 the eminent panel of seal management stated that there is no scientific consensus on the effects that grey seals are having on the recovery of cod stocks, which means that scientists differ on the effect that grey seals have on cod stocks. I am just wondering if you could elaborate further on that.

The last point is this. You probably read in the Chronicle Herald newspaper last week an article by a woman named Debbie Mackenzie, who is from Mr. Keddy's riding, I believe. She was talking about diseases that seals carry, like brucellosis, tuberculosis, and so on. She made the allegation that CFIA or DFO is not doing a complete health analysis of the seal meat when it is being exported overseas.

I am just wondering if you could comment on that particular article, because I have not heard a countervailing argument to what she has stated about the handling of the meat, and the concern that fishermen should have for handling seal meat, and also about the various diseases that seals do carry, if indeed they carry them at all.

[Denny Morrow]

Thank you, Mr. Stoffer. You will have to keep me on track. There are several questions that you asked.

I would just like to comment, first of all, that seals have lots of places to go in the ocean. Radio transmitters have been put on some grey seals from the Sable Island herd. What we find, not surprisingly, is that they hang around the fishing banks and the coastal waters. They are not out there in the deep water because the energy feedback is not good. If you've got to dive deep in dark, cold water and find your food, it's not nearly as productive as being in a shallow fishing bank or around the shoreline where the population of feed is greater as well. With my farming background, I know animals like the easy lunch.That is what we find with seals as well.

With regard to the article in the Chronicle Herald, brucellosis was mentioned. Again, with my farming background--and Mr. Keddy, perhaps you can help with this--I know that brucellosis is a disease that cattle and bison get. It affects their reproductive system and causes abortions. I understand from raising cattle that the main way that human beings can get the disease or suffer some effect from it is to drink the milk of infected cows. Eating the meat doesn't transmit it.

I understand it is spread by the bulls. So I am not sure what her reference is to here, how it is going to spread, whether there is going to be interbreeding of seals and cattle, or what. I'd hate to think of that.

In any event, I am unaware of any evidence showing that the disease is present in grey seals. If it were, their pupping wouldn't be very productive. We know it is on Sable Island. There hasn't been a fall-off in the pupping out there. So I don't think they are experiencing a lot of abortions.

If there is some impact of this, somebody had better tell the Inuit of Canada and Greenland, because they eat a lot of seal meat, and we don't hear any reports of any bad things happening.

But there is a danger in allowing the herd to expand to the point where you do have distemper or other diseases that have developed around the world in any wild animal population or seal population. We are developing a protocol with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency for meat inspection in the exports that are being developed. We are working carefully with them.

I guess I would finish with that issue by saying that the opponents of the seal harvest have adopted a strategy of attacking markets for seafood and seal products in particular. I would expect more such attacks to take place in the future. I would hope that when these people make these kinds of allegations, and put articles in the newspaper--and I am surprised that the Chronicle Herald never asked for evidence.... This is hurting the industry. It is hurting our economy.

You asked a question about the media. Could you remind me?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

In 2001 the report of the seal management panel indicates there's no scientific consensus that grey seals are having an effect on the recovery of cod stocks. That means there's a difference of opinion among scientists on that.

I'm wondering if your organization had an opinion, or when that came out did you indicate an analysis of your own? Obviously, by your presentation here--

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

You are a minute over time, so perhaps Mr. Morrow could give a quick answer on that.

[Denny Morrow]

That's a good question and it certainly deserves a full answer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

There you go.

Thank you, sir.

[Denny Morrow]

I'm well aware of the eminent panel. I was asked to appear, but was unable to do so. One of our processors took a tray of cod and haddock in that was loaded with worms to show one impact. I think that deserved about a paragraph in the eminent panel report. I understand one of the comments from some of the people on that was that it was just protein. There was nothing about the impact.

I realize that as fishermen and processors we don't have PhDs, but I've written a letter to The Navigator magazine in Newfoundland with some of these science questions on impact that we feel should be answered, that were not covered by the eminent panel. I believe that's because of the bias of the people on the panel.

I'll go over a couple of those questions. What is the impact on cod and other species of the growing infestation of seal worms that the industry is observing in fish caught in areas of high grey seal concentrations? What is the impact of the defensive behaviour of cod and other groundfish species in trying to avoid grey seal predation? If these species flee grey seal predation to deeper, colder, less feed-productive waters, what is the impact on the nutritional health of the fish? How can cod and other species spawn successfully on the shallow banks where there is a heavy concentration of grey seal predators present?

There are other questions that the eminent panel did not look at. The main thing they looked at was just how much cod they are consuming now that we have very few cod.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

A point of order, Mr. Chairman.