Evidence of meeting #40 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was general.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
I was going to give you the opportunity to make up.
Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard
Within the organization, I must say there is always this cultural reaction.
We had the team spend two full days with our management team on that report, so we understood the findings.
Obviously it was made available in its earlier forms to the Auditor General's staff. It came to mostly the same conclusions, and I rely on it very much.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
At that point you would just report it to the minister and—
Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard
We report it out, but then I also took a number of the actions that I did cite in my opening statement, to begin to put in place some of the capacities we needed to get on and do the work.
At the same time, we had put a lot of emphasis on fleet renewal, to update the fleet renewal plan, and to have a proposal for a next phase in the system.
Liberal
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy
Do you want to share your time with Mr. Cuzner? There are only five minutes, so I'm bringing that to your attention.
Liberal
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
I don't know what to say.
Mr. Murray, you made a comment about strengthening the model with regard to some of the funding. You mentioned there was $55 million in relief.
Could you clarify that for me, that particular money?
Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Sure. In relation to a lot of the work that went in at a strategic level to change the organizational structure, to make it a line organization, we also looked at the department from end to end in 2003—
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
Could you go back to the line organization?
Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Sure. When I left the navy I came as associate deputy minister from 1997 to 1999, which was just after a fairly challenging merger. We were trying to make the structure work, which made sense from a fisheries' perspective. When I came back in spring 2003 there were pretty significant challenges, which this committee is well aware of, since your report actually helped change it. Among the things that I concluded within the first two weeks was that the reporting relationship wasn't working. We really did need to give the commissioner line authority. If the coast guard was going to be a national institution, then it needed national direction, so the change was to ensure that then John Adams and now George—that assistant commissioners worked as part of a team in the region, with regional directors general. The person who decided whether they got that performance pay you were talking about was the Commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard. In other words, we established a line organization, but that's a cultural change. It takes time. The SOA has helped that, in my view, because it has made sure that if anybody else shows up in my job and decides to change it again, you have to go through legislation to get there, so it's unlikely.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
And that's enabled by the SOA that was set up. I guess my question was—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy
You are over time. You will have another opportunity.
Monsieur Blais.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
Hello again. I would like to go back to the issue of safety because I would like to understand the comments you made earlier, Ms. Fraser, when you talked about chapter 2, entitled "Contributing to Safe and Efficient Marine Navigation".
In what sense was safety used there?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
As the Commissioner of the Coast Guard mentioned earlier, it is a support role to other organizations in terms of safety, but there is also an aspect of safety involved in search and rescue.
Bloc
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We described it as being part of the coast guard's mandate. Of course, we looked at the way in which management practices work within the coast guard.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
Then you determined recommendations to follow. Visibly, on that aspect, my question is to determine if the recommendations that dealt with safety were followed, in your opinion, given the report that you are releasing today.
February 20th, 2007 / 12:25 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
All the recommendations are set out in table 4.1 of the report. As you will note, we have indicated that progress on all recommendations is unsatisfactory.
Are there any that may affect safety? Probably, yes. However, since progress is unsatisfactory, I wouldn't want people to conclude that this has a direct impact on safety. The impact has not been evaluated.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
You can easily understand my question or my comment earlier, with regard to a particular line of reasoning: if we consider that the criteria in the management plan on safety have not been respected and if we voice concerns or recommendations in this regard and then acknowledge that they have not been followed, then ultimately, two plus two equals four.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Perhaps, but as I tried to explain earlier, we are not doing the evaluation ourselves; we are really looking at the management practices. I am reluctant to conclude that because some recommendations were not followed, there has been a direct impact. Obviously, it is possible.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
My reasoning is based, ultimately, on what I am able to understand and conclude from this. I imagine that, once a recommendation on safety has been made and is not implemented, there is a management problem somewhere. I am trying to better understand this problem in order to better follow up and verify whether, in fact, it is working and see whether things are improving or not. You and I both know that it is all fine and well to issue recommendations, but those recommendations must also be implemented and we need to know why when they are not.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
When we make a recommendation, as I said, it concerns systems and management practices. We do not assess the potential impact. In order to properly answer your question, these activities would have to be evaluated and we would have to verify whether, even if the recommendation has not been implemented, the coast guard has used other means or other processes to ensure that activities are not affected. We do not do those kinds of assessments. Perhaps representatives of the coast guard can tell you how they ensure that safety-related activities—
